(04-24-2019, 03:08 PM)Au165 Wrote: Disagree. Houston played him as a NT at times in base downs. He is so athletic though some teams had him work out as a 3-4 MLB and he actually did well. I think the guy is possibly the best chess piece in the draft.

agreed, he is such an anomaly.  Smaller than Geno and his typical measurements would knock him off most teams draft boards were it not for all the other factors.  I would love love love to see him in Geno in the game next to each other at the same time.  

The downside is teams would go max run and we'd have to take them out all time.  

(04-24-2019, 02:48 PM)Au165 Wrote: He can play with his hand down as a DE and still be a top 3 DE in this class. People think he is a small guy but he is 6'5 260 with a solid frame. His best value is standing up, but a good DC will move him around. We worked him out so the idea "he doesn't fit this team" may be a stretch. 

Yes, that's what people say.  I have a differing opinion.  A lot of people get worked out and sometimes those people get drafted... then they don't pan out.  In the draft world, 1+1 doesn't always equal 2 or every team would hit on every draft pick.  Josh Allen is not a bad player and he will be drafted in the top 10 without a doubt, but unless they're transforming their base package to a 3-4 I won't put him on my board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdlsElEJAJI

Just for example watch every snap of his game against Georgia.  Almost no penetration every time he gets stood up by tackles he's completely shut down.  The only time he flashes is when he's playing standing up and can move in space.  He doesn't have great hand fighting, spin moves, or rips when playing DE in a 4-3.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpTuLRPefnc

compare this to a guy rated later in the draft Chase Winovich vs Notre Dame.  I like Winovich's hands much better for a DE.  He has several tools to win matchups against offensive lineman and you see most of them in this game.  He loves to grab guys by the numbers and pull them down then rush past them.  He shows spin moves, arm chops, bull rush,  and he will hit some guys with those E Honda hands so they never get ahold of him.  Most importantly you can see how he leans and bends around the edge.  

No way should a 2nd round guy be able to flash better on tape than a guy ranked in the top 5 of a draft in a similar position and that's why I project Allen to be a OLB in the NFL because it takes advantage of his athletic traits and removes him from the offensive line clutter that you experience playing with your hand in the dirt.  

Being critical of myself I think leaving Burns on this list may be a mistake because the more I think about it and watch him I don't know even with the weight if he will ever be a true DE.  I may have some editing to do time to watch some more tape.

(04-24-2019, 02:55 PM)Au165 Wrote: I think Oliver can play DE in base similar then kick inside on pass rushing downs similar to Michael Bennett in Seattle.

I'm starting to get the feeling that you and I see two completely different things in football.  I can see projecting Oliver to Linebacker, but a DE in the 4-3 you're just talking non-sense today man.  That's like saying Geno Atkins can play DE... sure you can put him in that spot and sure he could do something, but why take him out of the position he was obviously born to play.

(04-24-2019, 03:29 PM)Okeana Wrote: I'm starting to get the feeling that you and I see two completely different things in football.  I can see projecting Oliver to Linebacker, but a DE in the 4-3 you're just talking non-sense today man.  That's like saying Geno Atkins can play DE... sure you can put him in that spot and sure he could do something, but why take him out of the position he was obviously born to play.

Yea, we do see opposite it seems haha. Oliver at DE as I described came from an area scout for an NFC west team that I got 2nd hand from someone in the know. It’s definitely not non sense, he’d be a plus run defender in base with pass rushing upside (especially on a team with an established 3 tech) then could be used inside along your established 3 in sub packages. It’s the shortest distance to quick playing time, especially with us.

(04-24-2019, 03:26 PM)Okeana Wrote: Yes, that's what people say.  I have a differing opinion.  A lot of people get worked out and sometimes those people get drafted... then they don't pan out.  In the draft world, 1+1 doesn't always equal 2 or every team would hit on every draft pick.  Josh Allen is not a bad player and he will be drafted in the top 10 without a doubt, but unless they're transforming their base package to a 3-4 I won't put him on my board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdlsElEJAJI

Just for example watch every snap of his game against Georgia.  Almost no penetration every time he gets stood up by tackles he's completely shut down.  The only time he flashes is when he's playing standing up and can move in space.  He doesn't have great hand fighting, spin moves, or rips when playing DE in a 4-3.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpTuLRPefnc

compare this to a guy rated later in the draft Chase Winovich vs Notre Dame.  I like Winovich's hands much better for a DE.  He has several tools to win matchups against offensive lineman and you see most of them in this game.  He loves to grab guys by the numbers and pull them down then rush past them.  He shows spin moves, arm chops, bull rush,  and he will hit some guys with those E Honda hands so they never get ahold of him.  Most importantly you can see how he leans and bends around the edge.  

No way should a 2nd round guy be able to flash better on tape than a guy ranked in the top 5 of a draft in a similar position and that's why I project Allen to be a OLB in the NFL because it takes advantage of his athletic traits and removes him from the offensive line clutter that you experience playing with your hand in the dirt.  

Being critical of myself I think leaving Burns on this list may be a mistake because the more I think about it and watch him I don't know even with the weight if he will ever be a true DE.  I may have some editing to do time to watch some more tape.

The thing with Burns.....he played on a horrible team, and I'm admittedly a FSU fan.  Teams could scheme away from him, and he still made plays, much like they did with Derwin James the year prior.  He may need to bulk up, but I don't think you should be too critical of yourself for having him up there.  He could be an interesting chess piece, and I've even thought of taking him in the first if the cards don't fall the way we want leading up to our pick.  Just my opinion.  Also, good work here.....that's gotta be a lotta tape watching.

(04-24-2019, 03:48 PM)Wyche Wrote: The thing with Burns.....he played on a horrible team, and I'm admittedly a FSU fan.  Teams could scheme away from him, and he still made plays, much like they did with Derwin James the year prior.  He may need to bulk up, but I don't think you should be too critical of yourself for having him up there.  He could be an interesting chess piece, and I've even thought of taking him in the first if the cards don't fall the way we want leading up to our pick.  Just my opinion.  Also, good work here.....that's gotta be a lotta tape watching.

Yeah, he's a tough player to project and because we don't have him on tape in his final form its a gamble.  I will just trust my instincts on his balance and his ability to put positive weight on. 

on a side note...

Is it crazy the more tape I watch on Winovich the more I like the guy?  I actually have a late 1st round grade on him now   

(04-24-2019, 04:44 PM)Okeana Wrote: Yeah, he's a tough player to project and because we don't have him on tape in his final form its a gamble.  I will just trust my instincts on his balance and his ability to put positive weight on. 

on a side note...

Is it crazy the more tape I watch on Winovich the more I like the guy?  I actually have a late 1st round grade on him now   

I have a 2nd round grade on Winovich and actually took him as a Steelers pick in the Board Mock. 

(04-24-2019, 04:44 PM)Okeana Wrote: Yeah, he's a tough player to project and because we don't have him on tape in his final form its a gamble.  I will just trust my instincts on his balance and his ability to put positive weight on. 

on a side note...

Is it crazy the more tape I watch on Winovich the more I like the guy?  I actually have a late 1st round grade on him now   

No, judging from the work you've put in, I'd go with your opinion.....you've obviously done a lot of homework, and I've probably only seen 3, maybe 4 games of his, let alone break down any film on him.  I value the opinions on this draft forum, there are several of you guys that really put in work on this stuff.  I enjoy coming here and learning a lot from you, Syn, and Au, and others I know I am forgetting about draft prospects I know little or nothing about.  I just don't have the time with work, kids, yard work, etc....and they now have these damn firewalls at work.  Can't even watch YouTube here! 

Lindstrom is probably my favorite offense lineman in this draft.

I'm just not feeling it for Devin Bush.

If Haskins is there at 11, I think the Cincinnati Bengals select him.

(04-24-2019, 03:26 PM)Okeana Wrote: Yes, that's what people say.  I have a differing opinion.  A lot of people get worked out and sometimes those people get drafted... then they don't pan out.  In the draft world, 1+1 doesn't always equal 2 or every team would hit on every draft pick.  Josh Allen is not a bad player and he will be drafted in the top 10 without a doubt, but unless they're transforming their base package to a 3-4 I won't put him on my board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdlsElEJAJI

Just for example watch every snap of his game against Georgia.  Almost no penetration every time he gets stood up by tackles he's completely shut down.  The only time he flashes is when he's playing standing up and can move in space.  He doesn't have great hand fighting, spin moves, or rips when playing DE in a 4-3.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpTuLRPefnc

compare this to a guy rated later in the draft Chase Winovich vs Notre Dame.  I like Winovich's hands much better for a DE.  He has several tools to win matchups against offensive lineman and you see most of them in this game.  He loves to grab guys by the numbers and pull them down then rush past them.  He shows spin moves, arm chops, bull rush,  and he will hit some guys with those E Honda hands so they never get ahold of him.  Most importantly you can see how he leans and bends around the edge.  

No way should a 2nd round guy be able to flash better on tape than a guy ranked in the top 5 of a draft in a similar position and that's why I project Allen to be a OLB in the NFL because it takes advantage of his athletic traits and removes him from the offensive line clutter that you experience playing with your hand in the dirt.  

Being critical of myself I think leaving Burns on this list may be a mistake because the more I think about it and watch him I don't know even with the weight if he will ever be a true DE.  I may have some editing to do time to watch some more tape.

I won't beat the point to death, and au has pretty well said what I was thinking in regard to Allen. The only thing I'd note is, nobody looked good against Georgia's line. There was a reason it was a Moore finalist and help set school records. Allen wasn't any worse than most guys attacking it, and I think he'll do fine at the next level.

(04-24-2019, 11:33 AM)Au165 Wrote: Deandre Baker and Dillard are criminally low in my mind. I agree that Gary is a big time faller, I had him out of the 1st in my 32 team mock. I would add Jaylon Ferguson to the board over Collier and Winovich. Winovich to me is Sam Hubbard, a high motor try hard guy that in terms of having one on your team is great, but I'm not sure I want a second.  In terms of WR I think N'keal Harry better than any WR you have on your board, but I am also a sucker for Isabella in the 3rd.

Overall the board has talent, I think there are guys I'd consider higher some lower and maybe a couple missing but it makes logical sense. We disagree on Murray, but it's not worth a rehash here haha.

I remember reading that Gary has a tear in his labrum.  The hope is that you can put him in a harness and he can make it through the season, then have surgery in the off season, but I don't see it.  He's gonna fall big time.

Dillard isn't an ideal scheme fit, imo.  If we're going to be based on the Rams' play action heavy offense, you need OL that are also good run blockers and he just isn't it.  

(04-24-2019, 08:28 PM)Whatever Wrote: I remember reading that Gary has a tear in his labrum.  The hope is that you can put him in a harness and he can make it through the season, then have surgery in the off season, but I don't see it.  He's gonna fall big time.

Dillard isn't an ideal scheme fit, imo.  If we're going to be based on the Rams' play action heavy offense, you need OL that are also good run blockers and he just isn't it.  

It all depends, I think his athletic ability will allow him to outside zone block which is basically the staple of the Rams running game. If we do something different I could see a pass by us.

(04-24-2019, 03:02 PM)Synric Wrote: I dont think he can Oliver is a penetrating defensive tackle I dont think he will be able to hold up on first and second down as a run defender. Michael Bennett has size and length to stack and shed blockers in the run game.

It's one of the reasons I'm higher on Montez Sweat I think he could be Michael Bennett type dangerous on the outside but can move inside as a rusher.

Oliver basically played out of position in college due to lack of talent around him.  He's used to eating double teams as a NT, so I don't think he'll have much issue setting the edge as a DE.  Wherever you put him, he's going to cause havoc in the run game because he's quick enough to beat reach blocks cleanly and athletic enough to break down and make the tackle in the backfield.  He could be absolutely lethal scraping down the line from the backside.