(04-29-2019, 01:15 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I wish we had Pollack still instead of Turner. Not that I think Turner is bad, but I think Pollack was better.

well if that is true.. not sure if we see Westerman much then.. he could not cut it with Pollack style.. maybe though he will cout it with Turner.. third Oline Coach.. if he does not with Turner.. I think that tells you he is a backup in the league probably

(04-29-2019, 02:24 PM)Okeana Wrote: one big take away from this draft is that its clear they want to primarly be a zone based offensive line scheme.  Really wish they would have drafted James Daniels last year at center he would have been a much better fit than price.

Good point. I screamed this over and over last year.   I think they expected Ragnow to be there and just reached when he got taken a pick ahead of them.  

I also see them planning a revamp of the line. I think they project Williams LT and Jordan at LG.

(04-29-2019, 05:26 PM)yang Wrote: Good point. I screamed this over and over last year.   I think they expected Ragnow to be there and just reached when he got taken a pick ahead of them.  

I also see them planning a revamp of the line.  I think they project Williams LT and Jordan at LG.

explain how Price was a reach by draft standards... some had him ahead of Ragnow, most had him ahead of Daniels.. and he struggled in parts of the season last year.. Price was solid rookie until he got hurt which set him back.. so not like Daniels came out as a stud over Price last year when healthy

(04-29-2019, 05:12 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: PFF had him as our highest rated offensive lineman in both pre season and regular season. 

First of all I don't put a lot of weight on PFF ratings.  Their scoring is subjective and their formula is flawed.  In fact I am pretty sure they claimed he did not give up a single QB pressure in the game where he allowed a sack on a 2 Pt conversion because PFF said those plays "don't count."

Second.  .  .  

(04-29-2019, 02:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: it is much easier to "produce" if a guy is only playing half he snaps.  He has fresher legs and they probably use him on select plays that hide his limitations.

(04-29-2019, 01:15 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I wish we had Pollack still instead of Turner. Not that I think Turner is bad, but I think Pollack was better.

Absolutely agree and to be very honest I have a really hard time looking past the circus that was the locker room in Miami when Turner was there. I understand some of the pressuring in hazing type ways between players but I think a member of the coaching staff has to completely distance himself from anything such as this.

(04-29-2019, 05:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all I don't put a lot of weight on PFF ratings.  Their scoring is subjective and their formula is flawed.  In fact I am pretty sure they claimed he did not give up a single QB pressure in the game where he allowed a sack on a 2 Pt conversion because PFF said those plays "don't count."

Second.  .  .  

Well PFF is well respected and used around the league. So I think it's silly to simply ignore them because they support a view you don't approve of.
Well there also disadvantages to comming in cold off the bench as well.

(04-29-2019, 09:25 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Well PFF is well respected and used around the league. So I think it's silly to simply ignore them because they support a view you don't approve of.
Well there also disadvantages to comming in cold off the bench as well.

here is the problem with PFF.. they have no clue of line calls , stunts etc.. sure they can be used but everyone just goes crazy when a player is grading out on PFF and not starting etc.. I find it crazy that so many people think coaches play favorites etc.. these coaches have reached the highest level of coaching for a reason and it was not playing favorites etc.. we have no clue what does on in study sessions, drills etc.. 

Westerman has not been a starter since he was drafted.. that tells me something more than a system like PFF

(04-29-2019, 10:47 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: here is the problem with PFF.. they have no clue of line calls , stunts etc.. sure they can be used but everyone just goes crazy when a player is grading out on PFF and not starting etc.. I find it crazy that so many people think coaches play favorites etc.. these coaches have reached the highest level of coaching for a reason and it was not playing favorites etc.. we have no clue what does on in study sessions, drills etc.. 

Westerman has not been a starter since he was drafted.. that tells me something more than a system like PFF

PFF was right about Evan Mathis when the Bengals started Nate Livings over him. Maybe PFF isn't perfect but acting like coaches do not make mistakes is absurd.

(04-28-2019, 03:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If this were going on Glenn's past body of work, I'd agree with you. Glenn was on par with Hart last year. He was bad. If you try to explain it away with injuries, it doesn't help his case because he's been dealing with a LOT of injuries over the last 3 years. I loved the Glenn trade, but I also call it how it is. 

There are plenty of reasons to see him as a cut candidate. Not saying he WILL be cut, but it's a good possibility I'd say, when you weigh all factors. Which includes his health struggles. Also, who knows if he will ever return to form? 


I agree that Glenn > Hart, but is he a better RT than Hart (if we want Jonah at LT)? Idk about that. He'd be an experiment on that side. An expensive one. I'd say it's a toss up whether or not we cut Glenn. It sure would save Mike a lot of money, that said, I think it will all come down to whether or not they feel Jonah is ready to man the LT spot.

If they decide to start him out there, I think Glenn is as good as gone. I don't see them paying an oft-injured and possibly declining guy $9.4 million to test him at a different spot. He's been a LT for 9 years in the NFL.

You made some good points on Glenn and I agree he hasn’t played well but I can’t see them cutting him this season because we have zero quality depth at the position. If you cut Glenn outside of Williams who is a rookie you would have Bobby Hart and Kent Perkins who is a practice squad level player as your tackles which is scary. I think they wanted to move up in the 2nd round of the draft and select either, Taylor, Little or Ford then they could have cut Glenn but it never happened.

(04-29-2019, 11:13 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: PFF was right about Evan Mathis when the Bengals started Nate Livings over him. Maybe PFF isn't perfect but acting like coaches do not make mistakes is absurd.

In 2009 Bengals started Mathis over Livings until Mathis got injured.

In 2010 Mathis did not deserve to start.  That is why despite have 22 career starts Mathis had o settle for a league minimum contract to be a back up with the Eagles.

(04-30-2019, 10:03 AM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2009 Bengals started Mathis over Livings until Mathis got injured.

In 2010 Mathis did not deserve to start.  That is why despite have 22 career starts Mathis had o settle for a league minimum contract to be a back up with the Eagles.

Lol This is completely false. 

He started every game but one for his first three years with Philly, and started 9 more in his final season with them. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MathEv20.htm




In b4: "Well he only started 15 games his first year so he was supposed to be the back up!!!" He missed week 9 versus AZ with an injury.   Just admit it Fred. The Bengals coaching staff made a mistake with Mathis and Livings. Coaches make mistakes, it happens. 

Tackles:
Cordy Glenn
Jonah Williams
Bobby Hart

Guards:
Clint Boling
Christian Westerman
Michael Jordan
John Miller

Centers:
Billy Price
Trey Hopkins

(04-28-2019, 10:57 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Who's your starting 5, who are your backups, who get's shown the door?

Bengals currently have 13 OL on the roster.

Tackles:
Cordy Glenn
Jonah Williams
Bobby Hart
Kent Perkins

Guards:
Clint Boling
Christian Westerman
Michael Jordan
Alex Redmond
John Miller
Rod Taylor

Centers:
Billy Price
Trey Hopkins
Brad Lundblade


My Starting 5:

Cordy Glenn     Clint Boling     Billy Price     John Miller     Jonah Williams

That is how I think they will begin the season.  Obviously, they'll want to get Williams onto the field, in order to get the best 5 out there.  I really can't make any solid predictions on backups/cuts, until I see/read reports from OTAs/training camp/preseason.  There's a long way to go before the final depth chart is released, but that's who I predict will be the starting 5 on opening day.

(04-30-2019, 10:16 AM)Aquapod770 Wrote: Lol This is completely false. 

He started every game but one for his first three years with Philly, and started 9 more in his final season with them. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MathEv20.htm




In b4: "Well he only started 15 games his first year so he was supposed to be the back up!!!" He missed week 9 versus AZ with an injury.   Just admit it Fred. The Bengals coaching staff made a mistake with Mathis and Livings. Coaches make mistakes, it happens. 

It is 100% correct.  Just look it up.


He was signed to a league minimum contract to be a back up because he was a an out of shape slob in 2010.  He got into great shape for the 2011 season but only got a chance to start due to injuries to Ryan Harris and Winston Justice.

If the Bengals made a mistake with Livings then every other team in the league did also.  Otherwise he would have gotten more than a league minimum contract.  

Bengals always keep 9 offensive lineman. Xeno above looks good as long as you have confidence one of the guards can step out to play OT in case of injury.

Current estimate-

Left tackle: Cordy Glenn, Jonah Williams ®
Left guard: Clint Boling, Trey Hopkins, Michael Jordan ®, Rod Taylor
Center: Billy Price, Trey Hopkins, Michael Jordan ®, Brad Lundblade
Right guard: John Miller, Trey Hopkins, Alex Redmond, Christian Westerman
Right tackle: Jonah Williams ®, Bobby Hart, Kent Perkins

Borrowing from Xeno, I'll switch out Perkins for Westerman since Hopkins can play guard.

Tackles:
Cordy Glenn
Jonah Williams
Bobby Hart
Perkins

Guards:
Clint Boling
Michael Jordan
John Miller

Centers:
Billy Price
Trey Hopkins

(04-29-2019, 05:34 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: explain how Price was a reach by draft standards... some had him ahead of Ragnow, most had him ahead of Daniels.. and he struggled in parts of the season last year.. Price was solid rookie until he got hurt which set him back.. so not like Daniels came out as a stud over Price last year when healthy

No they didn't. He was consistently ranked well behind them by all the evaluators. Most had him as a 2nd or 3rd round pick. His problems in college were the same problems in the pros which is almost always the case. Players don't magically change. Daniels was one of the best zone blocking prospects to come out in the last decade. I suspect this is why our offensive line coach is gone already.

(04-30-2019, 10:37 AM)yang Wrote: Bengals always keep 9 offensive lineman.  Xeno above looks good as long as you have confidence one of the guards can step out to play OT in case of injury.

Current estimate-

Left tackle: Cordy Glenn, Jonah Williams ®
Left guard: Clint Boling, Trey Hopkins, Michael Jordan ®, Rod Taylor
Center: Billy Price, Trey Hopkins, Michael Jordan ®, Brad Lundblade
Right guard: John Miller, Trey Hopkins, Alex Redmond, Christian Westerman
Right tackle: Jonah Williams ®, Bobby Hart, Kent Perkins

Borrowing from Xeno, I'll switch out Perkins for Westerman since Hopkins can play guard.

Tackles:
Cordy Glenn
Jonah Williams
Bobby Hart
Perkins

Guards:
Clint Boling
Michael Jordan
John Miller

Centers:
Billy Price
Trey Hopkins


No they didn't.  He was consistently ranked well behind them by all the evaluators.   Most had him as a 2nd or 3rd round pick.  His problems in college were the same problems in the pros which is almost always the case.  Players don't magically change.   Daniels was one of the best zone blocking prospects to come out in the last decade.  I suspect this is why our offensive line coach is gone already.

Boiling has played OT for us before and the said Michael Jordan could if needed. That works as well...

Hopkins probly has to knock westerman off the roster. but is likely to happen

(04-28-2019, 11:08 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'd say that lineup has a pretty good shot. Glenn and Williams will most likely be our starting tackles, which one is where I wouldn't swear.

The middle Oline you've got has a really good chance however I wouldn't totally rule out MJ or Hopkins getting in there. I'd guess Redmond will be cut.

Johan Williams is a left tackle,period,if they try to pull a marvin lewis and make him play somewhere else,he will NOT be as good.He is a top left tackle and that is where he will be an all pro,move glenn into left guard,where he will be very good ,move boling into right guard and allow him to rotate with Redmond and westerman, or the big tackle from Ohio State.We got a ton of ways to do this,but to me you put johan Williams at left tackle where he BELONGS.

(04-30-2019, 10:30 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is 100% correct.  Just look it up.


He was signed to a league minimum contract to be a back up because he was a an out of shape slob in 2010.  He got into great shape for the 2011 season but only got a chance to start due to injuries to Ryan Harris and Winston Justice.

If the Bengals made a mistake with Livings then every other team in the league did also.  Otherwise he would have gotten more than a league minimum contract.  

Ryan Harris was cut by Philly on September 3rd and never played a down for them. He bounced around the league for a few years after his initial stint in Denver, but only started >15 games three times in his 9 year career.   Justice was injured, but was probable to play for week 1. He didn't because Philly was comfortable with Mathis. 

I never claimed Mathis wasn't given a league minimum contract. I wouldn't expect him to get much more than that after his last year with us. He wasn't signed to just be a back up. He was given a shot to compete for a starting spot and even if he initially started because of injury he played well enough to earn that starting spot for the next 3 years. 

(04-30-2019, 10:44 AM)Aquapod770 Wrote: I never claimed Mathis wasn't given a league minimum contract. I wouldn't expect him to get much more than that after his last year with us. He wasn't signed to just be a back up. He was given a shot to compete for a starting spot and even if he initially started because of injury he played well enough to earn that starting spot for the next 3 years. 

Then we agree.

Bengals started Mathis when he deserved to in 2009 (until he was injured), and in 2010 he did not deserve to start.

Mathis never reached his full potential until Paul alexander coached him.  He had been cut by two teams in two years when we signed him.  Too bad he was so out of shape in 2010.

(04-29-2019, 11:13 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: PFF was right about Evan Mathis when the Bengals started Nate Livings over him. Maybe PFF isn't perfect but acting like coaches do not make mistakes is absurd.

what is more absurd is acting like PFF is a coach

(04-30-2019, 10:40 AM)fortyyearfan Wrote: Johan Williams is a left tackle,period,if they try to pull a marvin lewis and make him play somewhere else,he will NOT be as good.He is a top left tackle and that is where he will be an all pro,move glenn into left guard,where he will be very good ,move boling into right guard and allow him to rotate with Redmond and westerman, or the big tackle from Ohio State.We got a ton of ways to do this,but to me you put johan Williams at left tackle where he BELONGS.

I disagree.. he can play either tackle or guard on both sides of the line...  we drafted him for the flexibility.. I do believe he will start but not sure where...