(05-02-2019, 01:47 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Jefferson would be ideal for spying on QB.   He could run them down.  

That does sound ideal with him, great point.

(05-02-2019, 01:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We've been pretty terrible at drafting LB's:

2018 Malik Jefferson
2017 Jordan Evans
2016 Nick Vigil
2015 Paul Dawson
2014 Marquise Flowers
2013 Sean Porter
2012 None
2011 Dontay Moch
2010 Roderick Muckelroy
2009 Rey Maualuga

Says something about our LB whisperer...

(05-02-2019, 01:36 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I just think that IF we think the reason that these players aren't good is 100% on coaching that we're going to end up disappointed in many cases.

We saw that last year. 2 years ago people thought Guenther was the problem. We get rid of him and the defense is way worse.

Same with Alexander. We bring Pollack in, add Glenn and Price...and the line improved some, but was still bad overall.

There needs to be accountability on BOTH players and coaches to perform.

I have to agree. Take Ross for example. The coaches last year had to design plays for him in the red zone to get any use out of him at all. The area between the 20s is where Ross should excel, but he kept looking completely lost in his routes. Maybe Ross will respond well to Taylor or maybe he won't. The last coaching staff got a lot of production out of Green, Sanu, Jones, Tate and Boyd, so to blame them for Ross' disappointing first two seasons is rather not supported by facts.

(05-02-2019, 01:55 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I have to agree. Take Ross for example. The coaches last year had to design plays for him in the red zone to get any use out of him at all. The area between the 20s is where Ross should excel, but he kept looking completely lost in his routes. Maybe Ross will respond well to Taylor or maybe he won't. The last coaching staff got a lot of production out of Green, Sanu, Jones, Tate and Boyd, so to blame them for Ross' disappointing first two seasons is rather not supported by facts.

Boyd went from the #3 WR to hardly seeing the field when Lazor took over in '17 and rebounded in '18.  Lazor didn't even coach Jones, Sanu, and Tate.  The only WR that was consistently good under Lazor was AJ. 

They didn't design plays for Ross in the red zone.  They primarily used him between the 20's to clear out S's to give Boyd and AJ more room to operate.  In the red zone, he actually ran routes other than flies.

I read somewhere Malik Jefferson struggled understanding his job for Darrin Simmons on special teams. I think that's the the reason Jefferson didnt see time on defense.

If Jefferson cant take a step up and learn special teams I dont see him lasting long in the NFL

I can see Jordan Evans taking that big step on year 3 which would be big. Evan's at WiLL Pratt at MIKE and Vigil at SAM.

(05-02-2019, 02:24 PM)Whatever Wrote: Boyd went from the #3 WR to hardly seeing the field when Lazor took over in '17 and rebounded in '18.  Lazor didn't even coach Jones, Sanu, and Tate.  The only WR that was consistently good under Lazor was AJ. 

They didn't design plays for Ross in the red zone.  They primarily used him between the 20's to clear out S's to give Boyd and AJ more room to operate.  In the red zone, he actually ran routes other than flies.

The truth, great post Whatever. I am seeing Ross make that big time jump similar to what Boyd did last year this year with an offensive minded HC that has worked with Receivers a lot. Ross did have 7 TD's last year, it is not like he didn't do anything.

(05-02-2019, 02:30 PM)Synric Wrote: I read somewhere Malik Jefferson struggled understanding his job for Darrin Simmons on special teams. I think that's the the reason Jefferson didnt see time on defense.

If Jefferson cant take a step up and learn special teams I dont see him lasting long in the NFL

I can see Jordan Evans taking that big step on year 3 which would be big. Evan's at WiLL Pratt at MIKE and Vigil at SAM.

Eh, Vigil isn't very good at SAM, i would rather see him at WILL with Pratt at SAM and with Preston Brown at MIKE. I think Evans has upside but at this point he is not a better WILL then Vigil from what i have seen. We will see how these players grow under a new LB coach though.

(05-02-2019, 12:27 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: was drafted for athletic potential as he has that...

Some guys take longer to learn that others   his lease is getting shorter though I have to imagine.

Or you could just go to youtube and see how much athletic potential he doesn't have for the NFL. 

(05-02-2019, 09:46 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't really see Jefferson playing any other position besides WILL given his skill set.
Evans is there too, and Pratt might be as well. Pratt also could play some SAM though. I think Davis is the backup MIKE.

From his days at Texas I could see him playing the middle. He certainly has the frame for it and his coverage ability would be welcome there but we would probably be better off having someone else calling the defense. He started to really come on at Texas when Todd Orlando became the DC and had him playing in attack mode rather than diagnosing.

I have been going back and watching some film on Jefferson under Orlando and the kid was a difference maker for the Texas defense. He is a very good wrap up tackler and can absolutely cover ground. He shows too much natural ability to not be on the field if you ask me.

(05-02-2019, 04:32 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Or you could just go to youtube and see how much athletic potential he doesn't have for the NFL. 

I have watched him on Youtube, he has athletic potential and everybody knows it dude.

Everyone talked about his athletic potential, he is big, fast, can cover and tackle.

Malik's problems are mental and not being able to disengage as Psych mentioned.

(05-02-2019, 05:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I have watched him on Youtube, he has athletic potential and everybody knows it dude.

Everyone talked about his athletic potential, he is big, fast, can cover and tackle.

Malik's problems are mental and not being able to disengage as Psych mentioned.

His problems are, he gets blocked out of plays constantly, misses too many tackles and doesn't hustle to the ball carrier. 

Also, at times he looks like he's running around out there like he has no idea what he's doing. 

He may have athleticism in things like the combine, but it doesn't translate to an NFL field.

(05-02-2019, 05:40 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: His problems are, he gets blocked out of plays constantly, misses too many tackles and doesn't hustle to the ball carrier. 

Also, at times he looks like he's running around out there like he has no idea what he's doing. 

He may have athleticism in things like the combine, but it doesn't translate to an NFL field.

Yeah, like i said, trouble disengaging from blocks and the mental side of the game lol

(05-02-2019, 05:45 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, like i said, trouble disengaging from blocks and the mental side of the game lol

Among other things, as i pointed out originally. 

I didn't know this about Jefferson (the insurance claim causing him to drop) but there were a lot of evaluators that had Jefferson as the #1 linebacker based on analytics and production. His eval was off the charts. He has better size, speed, power than either of the Devin's drafted.

It's obviously been claimed he fell because of intellect and we could call that a conspiracy theory were it not for the fact he is apparentlydumber than a bucket of nails and couldn't beat Hardy Nickerson out of playing time.

(05-02-2019, 10:24 AM)Au165 Wrote: :andy...or maybe our linebackers are just horrible and no coach could fix that? As has been pointed out, the scheme itself was complex for the sake of being complex that led to some uncertainty but poor tackling for example isn't something coaches just magically fix. A bad tackler is probably always going to be a bad tackler. You may see slight improvements but not the complete 180's I think some here expect out of "coaching them up".

:andy: :andy: :andy:

I don't know that Malik's play on the field has a hell of a lot to do with the law suit unless he's the kind of guy who knows he'll never cut it in the NFL and is only looking for some kind of injury settlement before the dust settles on his career in the league. I have no idea.. He may have brought it up to a coach or other player(s) ..word got around and now skating on real thin ice.. That's the only possibility I can think of that might tie the law suit in with him with the Bengals.. It certainly isn't unheard of that someone wants nothing more than insurance payouts.. Quite a few people have gone off to prison for those very same premises. 

(05-02-2019, 05:47 PM)yang Wrote: I didn't know this about Jefferson (the insurance claim causing him to drop) but there were a lot of evaluators that had Jefferson as the #1 linebacker based on analytics and production.  His eval was off the charts.  He has better size, speed, power than either of the Devin's drafted.

It's obviously been claimed he fell because of intellect and we could call that a conspiracy theory were it not for the fact he is apparentlydumber than a bucket of nails and couldn't beat Hardy Nickerson out of playing time.

now marvin had a thing for his guys.. And nickerson was definitely one of them

(05-02-2019, 01:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We've been pretty terrible at drafting LB's:

2018 Malik Jefferson
2017 Jordan Evans
2016 Nick Vigil
2015 Paul Dawson
2014 Marquise Flowers
2013 Sean Porter
2012 None
2011 Dontay Moch
2010 Roderick Muckelroy
2009 Rey Maualuga

We drafted Odell and signed Vontaz as a udfa two pretty good LBs. Also  would Add the Vigil lead the NFL in stops prior to his injury last season and was 8th in run percentage according to PFF for the whole season. Also didn't give up a pass TD all year.

(05-02-2019, 02:50 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: The truth, great post Whatever. I am seeing Ross make that big time jump similar to what Boyd did last year this year with an offensive minded HC that has worked with Receivers a lot. Ross did have 7 TD's last year, it is not like he didn't do anything.


Eh, Vigil isn't very good at SAM, i would rather see him at WILL with Pratt at SAM and with Preston Brown at MIKE. I think Evans has upside but at this point he is not a better WILL then Vigil from what i have seen. We will see how these players grow under a new LB coach though.

Nick Vigil is a SAM/MLB. He does well in a SAM role but struggles as the nickel MIKE.

The biggest improvement to the defense for 2019 is getting rid of Teryl Austin..Seriously cover 2 zone inside the 20 is like a rookie coordinator mistake.

(05-02-2019, 02:24 PM)Whatever Wrote: Boyd went from the #3 WR to hardly seeing the field when Lazor took over in '17 and rebounded in '18.  Lazor didn't even coach Jones, Sanu, and Tate.  The only WR that was consistently good under Lazor was AJ. 

They didn't design plays for Ross in the red zone.  They primarily used him between the 20's to clear out S's to give Boyd and AJ more room to operate.  In the red zone, he actually ran routes other than flies.

I believe Marvin was here for all of those guys. I can double check if you want, but I'd say it's pretty certain.

The team still retains the same WR coaches that were here last year.

Tyler Boyd's first two seasons netted 76 catches on 113 targets (67% catch percentage) for 828 yards. Not stellar numbers, but far from bust discussion. He missed 5 games in the first 9 weeks of the season in 2017 and wasn't all that healthy until late in the year. In the last two games of 2017 he caught 10 of 13 targets for 130 yards (both wins by the Bengals).

Coaching certainly matters. The player also matters - a lot. It's odd how one overdrafted headcase gets people forgetting that there are many other players at the position who more than lived up to the draft position. Ross' failures belong to Ross.

I hope Ross turns it around, but I will by no means make excuses for him.

 

(05-02-2019, 04:51 PM)OSUfan Wrote: From his days at Texas I could see him playing the middle. He certainly has the frame for it and his coverage ability would be welcome there but we would probably be better off having someone else calling the defense. He started to really come on at Texas when Todd Orlando became the DC and had him playing in attack mode rather than diagnosing.

I have been going back and watching some film on Jefferson under Orlando and the kid was a difference maker for the Texas defense. He is a very good wrap up tackler and can absolutely cover ground. He shows too much natural ability to not be on the field if you ask me.

If there’s someone else who can call the defense, sure. Jefferson needs to be free flowing. He’s not an instinctual guy.


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Malik Jefferson? Honestly, I feel he'll be lucky to make the roster. Any guy that can't understand simple things like Special Teams assignments, simply does not have the cerebral capacity that it takes to be a LB in the NFL.

I know that sounds harsh, and it's really a shame. The guy has that special blend of size and athletic ability that is coveted, but inside the helmet he just don't get it. I've said it previously, and I'll say it again; Texas used him like a pistol, just point and shoot. Likely for good reason..