(05-02-2019, 06:36 PM)Synric Wrote: Nick Vigil is a SAM/MLB. He does well in a SAM role but struggles as the nickel MIKE.

The biggest improvement to the defense for 2019 is getting rid of Teryl Austin..Seriously cover 2 zone inside the 20 is like a rookie coordinator mistake.

I usually am with you on most everything Synric but the only time i was overly impressed with Vigil was the Bills game a couple years ago when Burfict was playing SAM and Vigil was playing WILL. Granted, Vigil has not been very healthy the last couple years to really judge but i think you are wrong about where Vigil should play.

Completely agree about Austin though.

(05-02-2019, 07:39 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I believe Marvin was here for all of those guys. I can double check if you want, but I'd say it's pretty certain.

The team still retains the same WR coaches that were here last year.

Tyler Boyd's first two seasons netted 76 catches on 113 targets (67% catch percentage) for 828 yards. Not stellar numbers, but far from bust discussion. He missed 5 games in the first 9 weeks of the season in 2017 and wasn't all that healthy until late in the year. In the last two games of 2017 he caught 10 of 13 targets for 130 yards (both wins by the Bengals).

Coaching certainly matters. The player also matters - a lot. It's odd how one overdrafted headcase gets people forgetting that there are many other players at the position who more than lived up to the draft position. Ross' failures belong to Ross.

I hope Ross turns it around, but I will by no means make excuses for him.

 

I'm sure Marvin was great at developing WR's.

That same WR coach didn't exactly beat his fist on the desk for more talent, did he?  

There are WR's on this team I'm not enamored with, either, but the new coaches have watched the film and had a minicamp with them and don't seem to think they're the issue.  The fact is, we have not done a good job of developing players in that position group the last few years.  All those guys need to get better.

Not making excuses for a guy is one thing.  Constantly dragging him up and trashing him in threads that have nothing to do with him is something else.  You have a weird obsession with Ross like he kicked your dog or something.

The reality is, we have new coaches and new systems and gameplans.  Some of the guys that have been underwhelming to this point are going to step up.  There are also going to be guys that downslide.  

(05-02-2019, 09:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I usually am with you on most everything Synric but the only time i was overly impressed with Vigil was the Bills game a couple years ago when Burfict was playing SAM and Vigil was playing WILL. Granted, Vigil has not been very healthy the last couple years to really judge but i think you are wrong about where Vigil should play.

Completely agree about Austin though.

i remember that game and Burfict tore through the Bills blockng TEs but not every team is set up as run oriented as the Bills were 2 years ago. Vigil is more suited to cover the receiving TEs when teams are lined up in a 12 personnel when one of them are more of a receiver than a TE.

Example Burfict is better suited to cover Nick Boyle of the Ravens than the newly drafted TJ Hockenson even though both of them are TE-Ys.

(05-02-2019, 11:42 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: It's the simple fact that Jefferson really isn't very good. Go to youtube and watch any of his game tapes. Not highlights but the full games. 

He gets blocked completely out of plays way too easy, missed tackles, missed sacks, no rush to get to the ball carrier. 

He's just bad.

It is also a simple fact that this team cannot draft LB's if their lives depended on it. So if Malik is a bust, it would not be surprising, rather it would be surprising if he turns out well. We will have to see if Pratt is the result of some different approach to grading LB's then we have used in the past.

(05-02-2019, 10:30 PM)Whatever Wrote: I'm sure Marvin was great at developing WR's.

That same WR coach didn't exactly beat his fist on the desk for more talent, did he?  

There are WR's on this team I'm not enamored with, either, but the new coaches have watched the film and had a minicamp with them and don't seem to think they're the issue.  The fact is, we have not done a good job of developing players in that position group the last few years.  All those guys need to get better.

Not making excuses for a guy is one thing.  Constantly dragging him up and trashing him in threads that have nothing to do with him is something else.  You have a weird obsession with Ross like he kicked your dog or something.

The reality is, we have new coaches and new systems and gameplans.  Some of the guys that have been underwhelming to this point are going to step up.  There are also going to be guys that downslide.  

Nah, I just get annoyed at people making excuse after excuse for the guy. Besides I don't kick dogs.

We all are hoping the underwhelming guys step up. We were hoping that last year as well.

 

(05-02-2019, 01:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We've been pretty terrible at drafting LB's:

2018 Malik Jefferson
2017 Jordan Evans
2016 Nick Vigil
2015 Paul Dawson
2014 Marquise Flowers
2013 Sean Porter
2012 None
2011 Dontay Moch
2010 Roderick Muckelroy
2009 Rey Maualuga

(05-03-2019, 02:04 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Nah, I just get annoyed at people making excuse after excuse for the guy. Besides I don't kick dogs.

We all are hoping the underwhelming guys step up. We were hoping that last year as well.

 

I remember when we were all hoping Ogbuehi wasn’t complete trash. Good times.

(05-03-2019, 03:42 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: I remember when we were all hoping Ogbuehi wasn’t complete trash.   Good times.

And I remember when a lot of people considered Andre Smith and Dre Kirkpatrick complete busts after their second seasons.

Those of us who don't live their lives with a victim mentality can remember the positive as well as the bad.

(05-03-2019, 12:00 AM)Synric Wrote: i remember that game and Burfict tore through the Bills blockng TEs but not every team is set up as run oriented as the Bills were 2 years ago. Vigil is more suited to cover the receiving TEs when teams are lined up in a 12 personnel when one of them are more of a receiver than a TE.

Example Burfict is better suited to cover Nick Boyle of the Ravens than the newly drafted TJ Hockenson even though both of them are TE-Ys.

Good points as usual, there are times when you can move Vigil around, i guess that is what makes him valuable. Hopefully he can stay healthy so we can really judge, he got injured the last couple years a lot but showed flashes of a good player when he was somewhat healthy. It is going to be tough for any LB to cover Hoch.

I think Burfict is done, but i hope he is not and plays well for the Raiders.

(05-03-2019, 12:35 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: It is also a simple fact that this team cannot draft LB's if their lives depended on it. So if Malik is a bust, it would not be surprising, rather it would be surprising if he turns out well. We will have to see if Pratt is the result of some different approach to grading LB's then we have used in the past.

That's hard to tell to be honest.  The reality is that the team can't seem to draft a LB in the first round.  All of these 3rd rounders and later are drafted there for a reason.

Also, we need to get rid of the SAM, MIKE and WILL designations for the Bengals.  They basically play with 2 Nickel LBs.  

(05-02-2019, 01:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We've been pretty terrible at drafting LB's:

2018 Malik Jefferson
2017 Jordan Evans
2016 Nick Vigil
2015 Paul Dawson
2014 Marquise Flowers
2013 Sean Porter
2012 None
2011 Dontay Moch
2010 Roderick Muckelroy
2009 Rey Maualuga

I see what you're getting at, but I don't know that I would lump Maualuga into that group. Sure he didn't become the stud that a lot of us wanted, and he wasn't great at coverage, but he carved out a pretty decent NFL career.

(05-03-2019, 04:12 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: That's hard to tell to be honest.  The reality is that the team can't seem to draft a LB in the first round.  All of these 3rd rounders and later are drafted there for a reason.

Also, we need to get rid of the SAM, MIKE and WILL designations for the Bengals.  They basically play with 2 Nickel LBs.  

Eh, would you do it different and reach for a Linebacker at 11 or trade back and reach for one instead of drafting Jonah Williams?

Need to see how Lou runs his Defense before we start getting rid of designations.

(05-02-2019, 10:16 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: While at some point in his career he may have been a good coach he came to the Bengals as a complete hack. Its the coach's job to rend as much production out of his players. You cite Vigil, but do you think Evans , Rey, Nickerson or even Burfict were even remotely better after he came here.

I put a lot of this on Austin.  Even studs like WJIII looked below average early in the season and once it became evident to Marv that the defense HAD to play more man and less zone, even the LB corps looked better.  I just hope we don't go through that same stupid learning process again.  

(05-02-2019, 01:01 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: We have always needed a SAM backer man. I am hoping Pratt can fill that role cause we have always had PLENTY of WILL backers.

Malik only getting that many snaps with Nickerson sucking so bad is eye opening to say the least either with Malik's play or the coaches judgment. Malik is athletically gifted but the mental part of his game was always the reason he fell to the 3rd.

This guy needs to study and learn to diagnose plays, also needs to get better at shedding blocks and taking good angles. Malik has a lot of work to do as do most of our backers but i am just so happy we got a new LB coach in Tem and brought in Pratt. Davis is the exact opposite of Malik Jefferson, he is not athletically gifted but has good instincts, takes good angles and is a great tackler.

I guess their base position is not as important as our nickel package, and I think that would be Vigil and Pratt.  

(05-02-2019, 01:55 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I have to agree. Take Ross for example. The coaches last year had to design plays for him in the red zone to get any use out of him at all. The area between the 20s is where Ross should excel, but he kept looking completely lost in his routes. Maybe Ross will respond well to Taylor or maybe he won't. The last coaching staff got a lot of production out of Green, Sanu, Jones, Tate and Boyd, so to blame them for Ross' disappointing first two seasons is rather not supported by facts.

Antonio Brown knock early in his career was he could only perform between the 20 yard lines and could not score TD's.

Maybe Ross can figure out his weakness as TD production was actually great for catch ratio.

(05-03-2019, 01:45 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Good points as usual, there are times when you can move Vigil around, i guess that is what makes him valuable. Hopefully he can stay healthy so we can really judge, he got injured the last couple years a lot but showed flashes of a good player when he was somewhat healthy. It is going to be tough for any LB to cover Hoch.

I think Burfict is done, but i hope he is not and plays well for the Raiders.

I wish Burfict well, he gave up his body for us. My fear for him is he likely will get another concussion sooner than later because of how he plays. He can be having an all pro year, but can you count on him to stay healthy or out of trouble with the NFL who obviously has 10 eyes on him every play.

(05-04-2019, 07:46 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I guess their base position is not as important as our nickel package, and I think that would be Vigil and Pratt.  

I think so too, Pratt can also stop the run if a team wants to run a draw in those situations.

(05-04-2019, 11:23 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Antonio Brown knock early in his career was he could only perform between the 20 yard lines and could not score TD's.

Maybe Ross can figure out his weakness as TD production was actually great for catch ratio.

Yeah, people keep hating on Ross but he has more TD's than AB had his first two years.

Watch out with this guy who is a much better person (less diva) and faster.

Needs to work on his hands though, too many dropped passes last year.

(05-04-2019, 11:33 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I wish Burfict well, he gave up his body for us. My fear for him is he likely will get another concussion sooner than later because of how he plays. He can be having an all pro year, but can you count on him to stay healthy or out of trouble with the NFL who obviously has 10 eyes on him every play.

Agree, he needs to stop tackling with his head man.

He might not have as big of an eye on him now that he doesn't play the Steelers twice a year and is not in stripes, we will see.

(05-04-2019, 11:23 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Antonio Brown knock early in his career was he could only perform between the 20 yard lines and could not score TD's.

Maybe Ross can figure out his weakness as TD production was actually great for catch ratio.

Brown has nothing to do with anything, but lets hope that Ross can figure out his problems.

Taylor mentioned that he studied what the last coaching staff did with Ross in the red zone. The TDs are a definite plus though.

(05-03-2019, 11:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And I remember when a lot of people considered Andre Smith and Dre Kirkpatrick complete busts after their second seasons.

Those of us who don't live their lives with a victim mentality can remember the positive as well as the bad.

There are still people who consider Kirkpatrick a bust.  I think there is a lot of unfounded hate for the guy because partly, he drops passes.  

(05-04-2019, 03:03 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: There are still people who consider Kirkpatrick a bust.  I think there is a lot of unfounded hate for the guy because partly, he drops passes.  

The flambouyancy also doesn't help him.