(05-10-2019, 09:22 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The '09 team was smoke and mirrors. The least talented of all of Marvin's playoff teams. After Chris Henry went down with injury in game #8 our offense disappeared. The next week we beat Pitt without an offensive TD and after that we never beat a team better than 4-12.
Honestly. I can't remember. Is that the season where Palmer's pass accuracy was taking a nose dive by the end?
In my mind it seemed he kept throwing passes way too high by the end of the year.
(05-11-2019, 09:26 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Honestly. I can't remember. Is that the season where Palmer's pass accuracy was taking a nose dive by the end?
It was more lack of receivers.
Coles and Caldwell could not do anything even against single coverage. And we had zero receiving threat at TE (Foschie, Coats) or RB (Benson). So teams just bracketed Chad and shut down our passing game.
We were a run heavy team through the first 9 weeks, but with Henry in the lineup our passing game ranked 10th in tds, 13th in efficiency rating, and 18th in yards per game. Over the final 8 games (against much weaker defenses) it dropped to 27th in tds, 21st in efficiency, and 30th in yards. Chad was the only Bengal with more than 130 receiving yards in the second half of that season.
In the playoff loss Palmer threw for 146 yards and had a 58.3 rating.
(05-11-2019, 11:24 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It was more lack of receivers.
Coles and Caldwell could not do anything even against single coverage. And we had zero receiving threat at TE (Foschie, Coats) or RB (Benson). So teams just bracketed Chad and shut down our passing game.
We were a run heavy team through the first 9 weeks, but with Henry in the lineup our passing game ranked 10th in tds, 13th in efficiency rating, and 18th in yards per game. Over the final 8 games (against much weaker defenses) it dropped to 27th in tds, 21st in efficiency, and 30th in yards. Chad was the only Bengal with more than 130 receiving yards in the second half of that season.
In the playoff loss Palmer threw for 146 yards and had a 58.3 rating.
Spot on assessment of the 2009 team. I remember watching them thinking this team isn’t great from a talent standpoint and I’m not sure how long this will last. I remember we used to bring in Dennis Roland as an extra tackle to run the football. Daniel Coats was brutal to watch the guy couldn’t catch a cold had hands of stone.
(05-11-2019, 11:24 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It was more lack of receivers.
Coles and Caldwell could not do anything even against single coverage. And we had zero receiving threat at TE (Foschie, Coats) or RB (Benson). So teams just bracketed Chad and shut down our passing game.
We were a run heavy team through the first 9 weeks, but with Henry in the lineup our passing game ranked 10th in tds, 13th in efficiency rating, and 18th in yards per game. Over the final 8 games (against much weaker defenses) it dropped to 27th in tds, 21st in efficiency, and 30th in yards. Chad was the only Bengal with more than 130 receiving yards in the second half of that season.
In the playoff loss Palmer threw for 146 yards and had a 58.3 rating.
Thanks for the info Fred. That's an honest assessment.
Sometimes you mis-remember and let your opinion/scrutiny cloud what really happened.
I thought Palmer was throwing high inaccurate passes during the season and especially towards the end of the season.
The real problem for the lack of a pass attack was probably lack of talent besides Chad.
We certainly got Coles on the back end of his career peak.
Caldwell flashed some and made some clutch red zone catches that year but really wasn't any huge talent.
I totally forgot that was the season we lost the opener to the Broncos on deflected pass.
(05-09-2019, 02:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That 2015 team beat the Steelers on the road with the same HC.
I don't know if the roster was top 3, but it was much better than the '05 team and plenty talented enough to win the Super Bowl.
The playoff meltdown was epic. Even Peko, who was regarded as one of the top leaders on the team, lost his head. Don't know how much of that you can blame on Marvin.
(05-09-2019, 02:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It felt like a WWE match.
I don't defend Marv much, but that game was all on the players. With all the built up hatred against Pitt, they weren't mentally strong enough to put it all aside and focus on winning the game.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(05-11-2019, 07:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I don't defend Marv much, but that game was all on the players. With all the built up hatred against Pitt, they weren't mentally strong enough to put it all aside and focus on winning the game.
For whatever reason, it seems like Pittsburgh can always run on us and we can't run on them...and they seem to control the lines.
Even with Palmer out, we continued our hot start, jumping out to a 17-7 lead (17-14 at half). Then Kitna and the offense fell apart in the 2nd half. I don't think Palmer being there would've changed anything. People also forget how awful Palmer was in 2009 against the Jets. 18 of 36 for 146 yards and a pick. We just assume that because Palmer hooked up with Henry on that 1st pass that the entire game was going to be like that. I honestly doubt it.
Even if we assume Palmer lights it up and the Bengals don't choke up in the 2nd half, we weren't beating Peyton's Colts in Indy.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(05-12-2019, 11:57 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not even sure we beat the Steelers. A common problem for Marv teams in the playoffs is collapsing in the 2nd half.
Even with Palmer out, we continued our hot start, jumping out to a 17-7 lead (17-14 at half). Then Kitna and the offense fell apart in the 2nd half. I don't think Palmer being there would've changed anything. People also forget how awful Palmer was in 2009 against the Jets. 18 of 36 for 146 yards and a pick. We just assume that because Palmer hooked up with Henry on that 1st pass that the entire game was going to be like that. I honestly doubt it.
Even if we assume Palmer lights it up and the Bengals don't choke up in the 2nd half, we weren't beating Peyton's Colts in Indy.
I think there's one intangible you're leaving out for the game in 2005, though, and that's the crowd. First playoff game in 15 years, hope springing eternal, no years of playoff disappointments yet... Palmer's injury definitely tore the heart out of the crowd, but if he stays out there I think it plays a factor, especially if they jump out to a lead again.
(05-11-2019, 07:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I don't defend Marv much, but that game was all on the players. With all the built up hatred against Pitt, they weren't mentally strong enough to put it all aside and focus on winning the game.
(05-12-2019, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yet without a fluke fumble we win.
Not only that, it also completely changes how people view Vontaze Burfict. He's the biggest Cincinnati sports hero of the last 30 years instead of some punk the Bengals never should have taken a chance on.
(05-12-2019, 04:22 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Not only that, it also completely changes how people view Vontaze Burfict. He's the biggest Cincinnati sports hero of the last 30 years instead of some punk the Bengals never should have taken a chance on.
Yeah, but that's the Greek Tragedy in this. People like him do things that produce the eventual outcome. He's incapable of not doing it.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(05-12-2019, 04:29 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: True. But there were other things in this game and previous games to it, that showed the Bengals had a very hard time keeping their heads.
(05-12-2019, 04:34 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yeah, but that's the Greek Tragedy in this. People like him do things that produce the eventual outcome. He's incapable of not doing it.
Great post. I researched him in college when we signed him and he had the same personal fouls then which is why he was undrafted. And...he'll do the same things with the Raiders...because as you said...he's incapable of not doing it.
The silver lining with Burfict is that atleast he didn't get arrested off the field. And he did add somewhat of a toughness to our defense, although many of the hits were questionable. I bet a lot of guys would think twice about going over the middle with him there.
And maybe, if he were the only volatile guy on the team we would have been ok. But no. We had Jones too. I think that was too much to control for ANY coach.
(05-12-2019, 05:36 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Great post. I researched him in college when we signed him and he had the same personal fouls then which is why he was undrafted. And...he'll do the same things with the Raiders...because as you said...he's incapable of not doing it.
The silver lining with Burfict is that atleast he didn't get arrested off the field. And he did add somewhat of a toughness to our defense, although many of the hits were questionable. I bet a lot of guys would think twice about going over the middle with him there.
And maybe, if he were the only volatile guy on the team we would have been ok. But no. We had Jones too. I think that was too much to control for ANY coach.
See but people CAN blame Marvin for Burfict too.
He was Merv's choice and someone he "father figured" onto the team.
All of Marvin's flaws were exposed in that meltdown.
Couldn't control the players(even cupcake guys like Peko), impose on the refs, and his clock management and decisions sucked as usual.
Lots of players to blame but this HC was asleep at the wheel against a lesser Steelers team even with Macaroni tossing the ball.
Sorry ain't buying the get out of jail for Lewis on that one.
Still pisses me off just thinking about him with mouth agape and deer in the headlights look as everything crumbled down.
BengalsRocker
See but people CAN blame Marvin for Burfict too.
He was Merv's choice and someone he "father figured" onto the team.
All of Marvin's flaws were exposed in that meltdown.
Couldn't control the players(even cupcake guys like Peko), impose on the refs, and his clock management and decisions sucked as usual.
Lots of players to blame but this HC was asleep at the wheel against a lesser Steelers team even with Macaroni tossing the ball.
Sorry ain't buying the get out of jail for Lewis on that one.
Still pisses me off just thinking about him with mouth agape and deer in the headlights look as everything crumbled down.
Management is responsible for everything. There are obviously a lot of owners who wouldn't touch having Burfict on the roster.
I think Marvin came to this team and saw that the only way he could add talent under MB was on the cheap...so it's either sign guys that are bad...or oh hey, you can get a guy like Pacman Jones cheap because he's been suspended a bunch. Or, oh hey Burfict went undrafted. Or wow Tank Johnson and Benson got waived for off-the-field issues.
AND, the cherry on top is that most teams in the NFL won't sign these guys so the Bengals can lowball them and it's either they retire or take what the Bengals offer.
But, yes...the Steelers meltdown did demonstrate A LOT of things. It was Marvins 7th playoff loss. AND the Bengals chose to not fire him. Instead, they gave him 3 more seasons. HOW MANY NFL OWNERS WOULD DO THAT?
(05-12-2019, 08:30 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Management is responsible for everything. There are obviously a lot of owners who wouldn't touch having Burfict on the roster.
I think Marvin came to this team and saw that the only way he could add talent under MB was on the cheap...so it's either sign guys that are bad...or oh hey, you can get a guy like Pacman Jones cheap because he's been suspended a bunch. Or, oh hey Burfict went undrafted. Or wow Tank Johnson and Benson got waived for off-the-field issues.
AND, the cherry on top is that most teams in the NFL won't sign these guys so the Bengals can lowball them and it's either they retire or take what the Bengals offer.
But, yes...the Steelers meltdown did demonstrate A LOT of things. It was Marvins 7th playoff loss. AND the Bengals chose to not fire him. Instead, they gave him 3 more seasons. HOW MANY NFL OWNERS WOULD DO THAT?
Yep. Not gonna argue with your points. All valid.
Bad ownership and lack of dipping into the FA pool are Mike Brown's jam.
However Marvin has got to own the bad stuff as well.
A better coach could have snuffed out some of that crap that was going on in that particular game.
From what the players were doing, how the game was managed, and having a legacy of passiveness towards poor officiating.
(05-12-2019, 08:30 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: AND, the cherry on top is that most teams in the NFL won't sign these guys so the Bengals can lowball them and it's either they retire or take what the Bengals offer.
More complete bullshit.
The Dolphins just signed Mark Walton.
The Redskins signed Reuben Foster.
The Cowboys signed Greg hardy.
The Patriots signed Josh Gordon.
I can go on and on and on and on if you want. You sure miss out on a lot when you put on your "Bengals are the worst in the league" blinders.
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