(05-21-2019, 07:01 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I would of had the players disciplined already so it would never of happened...

Do you think it was a coincidence our players always folded in the Playoffs under Marvin Lewis Fred?

No coach since high school has been able to stop Burfict from personal fouls. It's the risk with keeping guys like him and Jones around. Yeah they have talent, but they are also volatile.

Fans LOVED Burfict for a large portion of his career here. They excused away personal foul and suspension after suspension and defended him.

I think AFTER this event they should have waived Burfict and not re-signed Jones IF they wanted to send a message. A LOT of GM's would do this. It's more a GM decision than a coaching decision.

(05-21-2019, 09:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's more a GM decision than a coaching decision.

Not buying that for a second.

(05-21-2019, 05:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I can't even tell when you are serious.

Every coach in the league claps and yells "Let's go" but somehow it is stupid for Marvin.

Every coach also works with the team all week long but some people here don't think the head coach does anything but show up on Sunday.

I think we're done here......

(05-21-2019, 10:58 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Not buying that for a second.

You don't buy that waiving players is more of a GM decision on teams?

On most teams in the league Coaches...well handle coaching. They might have input into decisions, but the GM handles it.

Here, Marvin was blamed for all aspects of the operation it seems.

How about Chris Henry? He got waived. Marvin said he wouldn't be re-signed. Then MB re-signed him. Or are we supposed to believe that Marvin changed his mind?

So mike publicly stepped on Marvin's toes, and years later Marvin does it to Guenther. I wonder if this is team MO behind closed doors. Guys trying to do their jobs and then getting blindsided by their boss.

(05-22-2019, 09:29 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You don't buy that waiving players is more of a GM decision on teams?

On most teams in the league Coaches...well handle coaching. They might have input into decisions, but the GM handles it.

Here, Marvin was blamed for all aspects of the operation it seems.

How about Chris Henry? He got waived. Marvin said he wouldn't be re-signed. Then MB re-signed him. Or are we supposed to believe that Marvin changed his mind?

Chris Henry? Here's how that went:
1) Henry gets waived, and *Mike Brown* issues a statement that Henhry forfeited his right to be a Cincinnati Bengal.
2) The Bengals top 3 WRs all get banged up in the preseason.
3) All the sudden the Bengals were willing to resign Henry. Go figure.

Now sure, Marvin came out and said they weren't interested, but coaches lie all the time. He easily could have been trying to limit bad PR at that point, or maybe he was just trying to convince other teams in the league that Henry wasn't worth it. We'll never know, but I have a hard time believing that the same coach that tolerated Burfict for years wouldn't do the same for Henry (and if you think Burfict was thrown upon Marvin without his consent, you're crazy based on how he treated him).

But sure, let's hear the guy who blames Mike Brown for all aspects of the operation criticize others for putting any blame on Marvin lol.

As for the GM thing, if Andy Reid wanted Kareem Hunt around, he'd still be a Chief. GMs who force their decisions on a coach end up where the Jets' last GM did - unemployed. No GM is going to overpower a coach, *especially* a coach as well loved by the owner as Marvin was.

(05-22-2019, 09:40 AM)SladeX Wrote: So mike publicly stepped on Marvin's toes, and years later Marvin does it to Guenther. I wonder if this is team MO behind closed doors. Guys trying to do their jobs and then getting blindsided by their boss.

When you don't have 1 person in charge and have 4-5 people in charge...I think you'll see that in business.

From the outside atleast, it's hard to tell who's calling the shots for the Bengals. Hopefully on the inside they have that defined better and just don't release it.

(05-22-2019, 10:25 AM)NKURyan Wrote: Chris Henry? Here's how that went:
1) Henry gets waived, and *Mike Brown* issues a statement that Henhry forfeited his right to be a Cincinnati Bengal.
2) The Bengals top 3 WRs all get banged up in the preseason.
3) All the sudden the Bengals were willing to resign Henry. Go figure.

Now sure, Marvin came out and said they weren't interested, but coaches lie all the time. He easily could have been trying to limit bad PR at that point, or maybe he was just trying to convince other teams in the league that Henry wasn't worth it. We'll never know, but I have a hard time believing that the same coach that tolerated Burfict for years wouldn't do the same for Henry (and if you think Burfict was thrown upon Marvin without his consent, you're crazy based on how he treated him).

But sure, let's hear the guy who blames Mike Brown for all aspects of the operation criticize others for putting any blame on Marvin lol.

As for the GM thing, if Andy Reid wanted Kareem Hunt around, he'd still be a Chief. GMs who force their decisions on a coach end up where the Jets' last GM did - unemployed. No GM is going to overpower a coach, *especially* a coach as well loved by the owner as Marvin was.

As I said, normal organization structures GM's take input from the coach...but ultimately the GM's handle personnel.

Believe me, after the 2015 meltdown...many GM's/owners in the league would have made some change. Either the Coach is fired for going 0-7 and having that meltdown on his watch. Or guys like Burfict are waived. Or Jones isn't re-signed. The Bengals brought all parties back.

The fact that the Bengals management gave a coach that was 0-7 in the playoffs 3 more seasons says a lot about them.

(05-22-2019, 10:25 AM)NKURyan Wrote: Chris Henry? Here's how that went:
1) Henry gets waived, and *Mike Brown* issues a statement that Henhry forfeited his right to be a Cincinnati Bengal.
2) The Bengals top 3 WRs all get banged up in the preseason.
3) All the sudden the Bengals were willing to resign Henry. Go figure.

Now sure, Marvin came out and said they weren't interested, but coaches lie all the time. He easily could have been trying to limit bad PR at that point, or maybe he was just trying to convince other teams in the league that Henry wasn't worth it. We'll never know, but I have a hard time believing that the same coach that tolerated Burfict for years wouldn't do the same for Henry (and if you think Burfict was thrown upon Marvin without his consent, you're crazy based on how he treated him).

But sure, let's hear the guy who blames Mike Brown for all aspects of the operation criticize others for putting any blame on Marvin lol.

As for the GM thing, if Andy Reid wanted Kareem Hunt around, he'd still be a Chief. GMs who force their decisions on a coach end up where the Jets' last GM did - unemployed. No GM is going to overpower a coach, *especially* a coach as well loved by the owner as Marvin was.

When your owner is the GM you can. I think Ross is a good example of how they didn't quite align on what they wanted/needed as a team

(05-22-2019, 10:41 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: As I said, normal organization structures GM's take input from the coach...but ultimately the GM's handle personnel.

Believe me, after the 2015 meltdown...many GM's/owners in the league would have made some change. Either the Coach is fired for going 0-7 and having that meltdown on his watch. Or guys like Burfict are waived. Or Jones isn't re-signed. The Bengals brought all parties back.

The fact that the Bengals management gave a coach that was 0-7 in the playoffs 3 more seasons says a lot about them.

And back to back losing season. This pretty much broke my spirits like an ugly divorce. It's......just sad

(05-22-2019, 10:47 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: And back to back losing season. This pretty much broke my spirits like an ugly divorce. It's......just sad

I'm fairly convinced that the meltdown in 2015 broke the team. Then, they lost a bunch of their key players in free agency over the next 2 years.

People are placing the lack of accountability on the wrong person. It's ownership/management who sets the team culture. Culture is dictated by the worst behavior you tolerate.

You have Burfict getting lots of personal fouls/suspensions and you keep him because he's a good player. And you have an 0-7 coach in the playoffs and you keep him and you expect to miraculously just start winning playoff games?

I feel like in some ways, they're content just not being 90's level bad. Maybe it's the media market? In NY or Pittsburgh or Boston, there would be intense pressure on the team to win playoff games and maybe that would push them to hiring a GM or spending more. Some teams look for creative ways to exceed the cap for instance. And restructure deals.

In Cincy, there seems to be very little pressure on the team from media...or even fans.

(05-21-2019, 09:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Fans LOVED Burfict for a large portion of his career here. They excused away personal foul and suspension after suspension and defended him.

I was going to say, up until this year the narrative on Burfict was that the NFL had it out for him and if we got rid of him he was going to go to the Steelers and become the golden boy of the NFL while he drove his sharpened cleats directly into Dalton's face...or something.

(05-22-2019, 11:03 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm fairly convinced that the meltdown in 2015 broke the team. Then, they lost a bunch of their key players in free agency over the next 2 years.

People are placing the lack of accountability on the wrong person. It's ownership/management who sets the team culture. Culture is dictated by the worst behavior you tolerate.

You have Burfict getting lots of personal fouls/suspensions and you keep him because he's a good player. And you have an 0-7 coach in the playoffs and you keep him and you expect to miraculously just start winning playoff games?

I feel like in some ways, they're content just not being 90's level bad. Maybe it's the media market? In NY or Pittsburgh or Boston, there would be intense pressure on the team to win playoff games and maybe that would push them to hiring a GM or spending more. Some teams look for creative ways to exceed the cap for instance. And restructure deals.

In Cincy, there seems to be very little pressure on the team from media...or even fans.

You tell me:

Quote:Brown: “Clearly, our attendance was off. The best single thing we can do to re-establish our attendance is to win on the field. All the other things are peripheral to that. We won’t be able to improve any of that until we get out there and have our chance to do so. But that is the key. I suppose there are other things. We have people that work on the other things and we try to do them right. You mentioned the 50th-anniversary celebration. We brought old-timers back on a weekly basis and I thought that went extremely well. Yet doing that is not going to fill the seats. They’re going to come when we win. In some ways, ours is a hard market. It is the fact that our people are judgmental about us. They are often easy to condemn when it doesn’t go to their standards. But we’re coming off a run of playoff years and they began to see that as the bare minimum. Well, maybe for them it is. For most people in this league, it’s a pretty solid achievement. I think only a couple of other teams have managed that during that same time period. But we didn’t go forward from that. We didn’t have success in the playoffs. And that was our undoing.

(05-21-2019, 05:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know.  You tell me.  What exactly was done and said in meetings and on the practice field.

What would you have done if you were a coach to "hold them accountable"?

Aaron Rodgers fumbled and lost a playoff game against the cardinals in 2016.  Was he benched at the start of 2017 to "hold him accountable"?

I don't think we are talking about Fumbles in a game. Those happen.

Things like Jones losing his cool and slamming Coopers head into the ground, and going off on the Refs during the plays offs.
That's straight up discipline stuff. Marvin had recurring issues with multiple players that should have been addressed and stopped.

(05-22-2019, 11:19 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I was going to say, up until this year the narrative on Burfict was that the NFL had it out for him and if we got rid of him he was going to go to the Steelers and become the golden boy of the NFL while he drove his sharpened cleats directly into Dalton's face...or something.

Yep. Now people are talking about how Marvin should have held him accountable before the incident occurred.

(05-21-2019, 09:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: No coach since high school has been able to stop Burfict from personal fouls. It's the risk with keeping guys like him and Jones around. Yeah they have talent, but they are also volatile.

Fans LOVED Burfict for a large portion of his career here. They excused away personal foul and suspension after suspension and defended him.

I think AFTER this event they should have waived Burfict and not re-signed Jones IF they wanted to send a message. A LOT of GM's would do this. It's more a GM decision than a coaching decision.

The issue is Burfict was basically a folk hero in Cincinnati after that game.  He was the guy righting the wrongs and giving back what the Steelers were dishing out.  He didn't start wearing out his welcome until the following years where he would routinely show up out of shape and his play declined.  Plus, I'm sure the thinking was that they would have won comfortably if Dalton had played.

Being fair, fans are pretty two faced about discipline issues, too.  How many people wanted Reuben Foster claimed off waivers last year? Heck, there's a thread about signing Gerald McCoy right now.  

(05-22-2019, 12:37 PM)Whatever Wrote: The issue is Burfict was basically a folk hero in Cincinnati after that game.  He was the guy righting the wrongs and giving back what the Steelers were dishing out.  He didn't start wearing out his welcome until the following years where he would routinely show up out of shape and his play declined.  Plus, I'm sure the thinking was that they would have won comfortably if Dalton had played.

Being fair, fans are pretty two faced about discipline issues, too.  How many people wanted Reuben Foster claimed off waivers last year? Heck, there's a thread about signing Gerald McCoy right now.  

That's all accurate analysis I'd say.

IF you look at Burfict's stats, he was basically done after his 2nd year in the league (2013):

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BurfVo00.htm

Games played: 16, 16, 5, 10, 11, 10, 7
Tackles: 127, 177, 29, 74, 101, 69, 33
He finished with 8.5 career sacks here.
4 Forced Fumbles. 5 Fumble Recoveries.
5 Interceptions in his Bengals Career.

His reputation was largely built on the 177 tackle season and dirty hits which make fans think he was better than he was. For 2 years, he was a great LB. For the other 5 years he was average to below average.

(05-21-2019, 07:08 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: The thing about Fred is, he needs everything to be black-and-white. He doesn’t accept anything that is a judgment (no matter how logical it is).

He will gladly argue anything that isn’t concrete or a statistic, simply because it’s easy. Anyone can do that. The funny thing is he has that holier-than-thou attitude, believing he is somehow “smarter” than the masses because he ignores their main point and nitpicks with small, irrelevant points.

It’s best to not engage with him. He’s either the worlds biggest troll, or he has an inferiority complex. My guess is the former, but hey, he does occasionally make some great posts. I just wish that was all he did around here. His big claim to fame here is being an argumentative nuisance

It is more entertaining around here with Fred around though, have to give him that.

(05-21-2019, 08:46 PM)HarleyDog Wrote:

Lol, love the Batman bitchslap LMAO

(05-22-2019, 12:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. Now people are talking about how Marvin should have held him accountable before the incident occurred.

No, I'm saying he should have been held accountable AFTER the incident occurred. You might also notice that "holding someone accountable" and "instantly cutting someone" are not the same thing. I never said they should cut the guy after 2015. Call him out in public! Strip him of his leadership role! Work his ass off in training camp! 

If Jeremy Hill doesn't fumble the ball there Vontaze Burfict goes down as one of the biggest heroes in Cincinnati sports history, but sure, let's all pretend Vontaze was past the point where he brought anything to the team there.

I'm a Marvin Lewis and Andy Dalton supporter and always have been, but if you want to see complete proof of Marvin's lack of accountability just look at how he coddled Andy over the years. Has he ever been critical of the guy?

Hell, if you want another example of how Marvin holds people accountable, look at what he had to say about Hue Jackson at his final press conference last year. Paraphrasing here, but I remember him saying something like "Oh yeah, the Bengals should hire him. The stuff in Cleveland wasn't his fault and there were all these other circumstances that put him in the position [of being an absolute joke of a head coach]".

Accountability!