(05-31-2019, 09:08 AM)Au165 Wrote: Our offense was one of the best in the league last year, with a worse line, before our injuries started piling up. I don't think offense will be an issue, the question remains can the defense stop anyone.

We certainly didn’t add much on that side of the ball...

(05-31-2019, 10:18 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We certainly didn’t add much on that side of the ball...

did get a lot back healthy though sometimes that's enough.. Defense wasn't horrible down the stretch either

(05-31-2019, 10:52 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: did get a lot back healthy though sometimes that's enough.. Defense wasn't horrible down the stretch either

Yeah, hopefully Brown and Lawson are back healthy. Lou as DC is a big question mark though (as is much of the coaching staff).

(05-31-2019, 10:53 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yeah, hopefully Brown and Lawson are back healthy. Lou as DC is a big question mark though (as is much of the coaching staff).

Yeah, the sweet Lou hire has that sort of "this guy has been around for a long time and we are the first ones to promote him to coordinator" thing and this is a little scary seeing as we are still traumatized by seeing how clearly unworthy Zampese was when we finally gave him that promotion.

(05-31-2019, 10:53 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yeah, hopefully Brown and Lawson are back healthy. Lou as DC is a big question mark though (as is much of the coaching staff).

I think we are going to be surprised by Lou

(05-30-2019, 08:59 PM)XsandOs Wrote: Yes. 2005.

It took twenty years from Munoz-Remington days to get a duo.

Yep and then since Levi Jones and Rich Braham hopefully it is only 14 years lol

(05-31-2019, 08:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Dead on.  And the offense, at least before becoming beset with injuries, was not the problem.  They have better depth at TE, RB, and offensive line.  A less predictable scheme that keeps Andy in different spots combined with the talent could yield huge dividends.  

If you look at what Mixon and Dalton were able to do behind last year's line, you would think they are salivating at the upgrades made on the line, at TE, and hopefully WR with Ross being utilized for more than a deep route between the 20s.  

Honestly, what I am most excited about with this offense (other than just the overall scheme, which is said to have more motion, misdirection, waggles, and bootlegs) is the rushing attack.  An even bigger and stronger offensive line compared to last year.  A healthy Billy Price in year 2.  And, significant competition at the RB position.  Yes, Mixon is our "bell cow", but they can keep him fresher by having a rotation with Williams and possibly Anderson and using Gio all over the field as a back and as a receiver.  The two new backs are guaranteed to prevent Mixon from becoming complacent.  Not saying that he would, but I don't care who you are when there is that kind of talent in the RB room there will be a healthy competition and will bring out the best in all of them.  

The biggest possible improvement that can be made to the defense right now is keeping them off the field for long stretches by owning time of possession and having long, sustained drives.  

What a RB competition we have, Traveon was my favorite RB in that entire Draft and Anderson was a Heisman trophy looking Back before got hurt. Adding these two guys to Mixon who i find to be just as talented as any RB in the NFL and Gio who is a very good RB that like you said can play Receiver and i wouldn't know what to do on Defense. It can be so unpredictable with all these guys.

Everyone of them knows how to run the ball, catch the ball, pick up the blitz and i am not even mentioning Hall, the other RB.

This Line that Turner is putting together just needs to open up a hole and any one of these backs, especially Traveon and Mixon can take it the distance. We will see how healthy Gio is and if age is catching up to him this year though, great player when healthy and i don't think he has been used right over his career and it is a shame. Anderson is extremely smooth, hard to take down and has great hands.

(05-31-2019, 08:08 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: YES!  Our old offense was predictable as hell by both personnel and formation.  You hardly EVER saw Dalton on a bootleg.  You hardly ever saw their TE screen that has a misdirection to the RB early (Nate, I know you love that play, too...good for 10-15 every time they ran in....all 3 times  ).  They rarely took advantage of guys playing off Ross with a quick screen and then see if he can make one guy miss.

And with respect to Glenn and Mller, ZT has said he likes his offensive line BIG IN THE MIDDLE.  With Glenn, Price, and Miller, you have three potential road graders that will not be easy to fly by up the middle.  Mixon was so adept at making the first guy miss, that he will probably not know what to do when he sees a gaping hole (Keep it clean, Fred).

Yeah, TE middle screen...

That shit can't be stopped lol

Ross is great in space, never understood why Lazor didn't try to utilize this part of his game. Would of gained that confidence ten times as fast if he did. Quick screens, drop offs, boot legs, short slants, short curls etc.

That is big in the middle no doubt. Price was a great run blocker at OSU and could just pancake dudes, has a great anchor, hope he gets back that nastiness in his blocking. Mixon is the guy besides Dalton i see having a huge year, hope to see him more in the passing game where he is so talented. Gio is good in the passing game too but he cannot run guys over or even make them miss like Mixon can. Get him the ball and let him work.

(05-31-2019, 09:08 AM)Au165 Wrote: Our offense was one of the best in the league last year, with a worse line, before our injuries started piling up. I don't think offense will be an issue, the question remains can the defense stop anyone.

That is the question, hope our new coaches recognized the problem.

The LB's were terrible and the overall tackling was poor.

(05-31-2019, 01:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: What a RB competition we have, Traveon was my favorite RB in that entire Draft and Anderson was a Heisman trophy looking Back before got hurt. Adding these two guys to Mixon who i find to be just as talented as any RB in the NFL and Gio who is a very good RB that like you said can play Receiver and i wouldn't know what to do on Defense. It can be so unpredictable with all these guys.

Everyone of them knows how to run the ball, catch the ball, pick up the blitz and i am not even mentioning Hall, the other RB.

This Line that Turner is putting together just needs to open up a hole and any one of these backs, especially Traveon and Mixon can take it the distance. We will see how healthy Gio is and if age is catching up to him this year though, great player when healthy and i don't think he has been used right over his career and it is a shame. Anderson is extremely smooth, hard to take down and has great hands.

People always ask "How do the Pats do it and why doesn't anyone copy it"?

Well, I see their success as multifactorial, but one of the big keys to their success is smart, versatile players that can adapt to any opponent.  Combine that with great coaching and game-planning and you have a great foundation.

Last year, it seemed the Pats were content to line up with two TEs, two WRs, and a single back.  They would evaluate the personnel on the other side:  If the defense was in nickel and playing off the LOS, they pounded you with their RBs and a great offensive line with a good blocking TE as well.  If the defense was more in a base personnel, they would gash their LBs with short, quick passes to their RB, TE, and slot WR.  They didn't have to change personnel to change their attack.  They could even go hurry up and when the defense was in nickel and just go pound, pound, pound...and never allow the defense time to substitute.  Seems simple, but it was very effective.  They attack what they are seeing.

Marv and Co typically would go two drives with Mixon, then one with Gio.  They would use the TEs primarily as receiving threats.  They would send Ross vertical (I know that is largely an X receiver's role, but every damn time until the Red Zone?) to try and draw defenses back to open up the underneath to the TEs, Boyd and AJ, and sometimes Mixon/Gio.  It worked to an extent but teams adjusted and the Bengals had no answer.  

I understand the Bengals don't have a line close to that of the Pats, nor the coaching talent/experience, but I am very excited at the actual personnel adaptations to focus on the rushing attack.  They aren't just talking about the running game, they addressed it with the best blocking TE in the draft.  Two new key pieces on the offensive line, and two new backs for depth of talent and competition.

If they are able to have some success attacking nickel defenses with the rushing attack, it will open up all kinds of opportunities for Dalton with play-action.  

As you said, this season, IMHO, is going to come down to the middle of the defense and if the front four can do a better job generating pressure.  

(06-01-2019, 08:14 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: People always ask "How do the Pats do it and why doesn't anyone copy it"?

Well, I see their success as multifactorial, but one of the big keys to their success is smart, versatile players that can adapt to any opponent.  Combine that with great coaching and game-planning and you have a great foundation.

Last year, it seemed the Pats were content to line up with two TEs, two WRs, and a single back.  They would evaluate the personnel on the other side:  If the defense was in nickel and playing off the LOS, they pounded you with their RBs and a great offensive line with a good blocking TE as well.  If the defense was more in a base personnel, they would gash their LBs with short, quick passes to their RB, TE, and slot WR.  They didn't have to change personnel to change their attack.  They could even go hurry up and when the defense was in nickel and just go pound, pound, pound...and never allow the defense time to substitute.  Seems simple, but it was very effective.  They attack what they are seeing.

Marv and Co typically would go two drives with Mixon, then one with Gio.  They would use the TEs primarily as receiving threats.  They would send Ross vertical (I know that is largely an X receiver's role, but every damn time until the Red Zone?) to try and draw defenses back to open up the underneath to the TEs, Boyd and AJ, and sometimes Mixon/Gio.  It worked to an extent but teams adjusted and the Bengals had no answer.  

I understand the Bengals don't have a line close to that of the Pats, nor the coaching talent/experience, but I am very excited at the actual personnel adaptations to focus on the rushing attack.  They aren't just talking about the running game, they addressed it with the best blocking TE in the draft.  Two new key pieces on the offensive line, and two new backs for depth of talent and competition.

If they are able to have some success attacking nickel defenses with the rushing attack, it will open up all kinds of opportunities for Dalton with play-action.  

As you said, this season, IMHO, is going to come down to the middle of the defense and if the front four can do a better job generating pressure.  

Absolutely brilliant analysis! +1.

There is no secret to what the Patriots do. Their offensive playbook is vanilla and skim milk but here’s the difference: The players are coached to execute their individual jobs to perfection.

(06-02-2019, 12:13 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Absolutely brilliant analysis!  +1.

There is no secret to what the Patriots do.  Their offensive playbook is vanilla and skim milk but here’s the difference:  The players are coached to execute their individual jobs to perfection.

Exactly. This is why you don't need superstars, you just need players to do their jobs. Pats will adjust regardless of who is out there on the field. They are very disciplined and focused on the simple things. 

(05-30-2019, 03:50 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: ^^^^^

Why do some write off a 25 year old OT? The new coaching staff had every chance to not re-sign him and tell FO to pass, but went opposite direction and gave him a solid contract. I see the same fans dish Hart who love the new coaching staff. It is puzzling???

I dunno.. 25 is soooo old these days. My grandson is just a year old so by the time he reaches 25 all these 25 year old players will be long gone.. That's it.. 25 is way over the hill these days. Better start looking for players in the maternity wards..

(05-31-2019, 11:43 AM)sandwedge Wrote: I think we are going to be surprised by Lou

I'll say...why, when we hired the guy I had to google his name to find out who he even is!  I'd consider that as being surprised by the guy, already.

(06-03-2019, 08:32 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll say...why, when we hired the guy I had to google his name to find out who he even is!  I'd consider that as being surprised by the guy, already.

Tbf most people probably had to do that with Zac Taylor...

(06-03-2019, 08:32 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll say...why, when we hired the guy I had to google his name to find out who he even is!  I'd consider that as being surprised by the guy, already.

I said the same thing about Jay Gruden...other than his name, what had he done in the NFL?  And no OTAs, with a rookie QB, and a team panned as likely to go 0-16?  And they went 9-7 and made the playoffs.  So who knows?  I am just excited at what i WON'T be seeing this year...or at least I would think I wouldn't see:  DBs playing 10 yards off a receiver on 3rd and 5.  LBs 6 yards off the LOS with stone feet on 3rd and 1.  Low % passes on 3rd and short.  The same plays run over and over again from the same formations.  A QB that never has designed roll-outs or waggles.  Zone defense when the strength of your defense is your CBs, who are better at man coverage.  

I can't wait to see what they get out of these players.  I have long thought we had the talent, but we were coached by a man that would have been a Super Bowl Champion...in the 70s.  

Please, Lou, blitz a bit more and more creatively.  Play to your team's strengths.  Create competition at every position and let the best players play.

(06-03-2019, 08:45 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I said the same thing about Jay Gruden...other than his name, what had he done in the NFL?  And no OTAs, with a rookie QB, and a team panned as likely to go 0-16?  And they went 9-7 and made the playoffs.  So who knows?  I am just excited at what i WON'T be seeing this year...or at least I would think I wouldn't see:  DBs playing 10 yards off a receiver on 3rd and 5.  LBs 6 yards off the LOS with stone feet on 3rd and 1.  Low % passes on 3rd and short.  The same plays run over and over again from the same formations.  A QB that never has designed roll-outs or waggles.  Zone defense when the strength of your defense is your CBs, who are better at man coverage.  

I can't wait to see what they get out of these players.  I have long thought we had the talent, but we were coached by a man that would have been a Super Bowl Champion...in the 70s.  

Please, Lou, blitz a bit more and more creatively.  Play to your team's strengths.  Create competition at every position and let the best players play.

I was just making a joke.  We shall see what happens, but Lou's long resume combined with us being the only team to elevate him to a coordinator position in all those years gives me flashbacks of Zampese more than anything.  Then again, at this time we may as well just hope for the best.

(06-03-2019, 08:54 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I was just making a joke.  We shall see what happens, but Lou's long resume combined with us being the only team to elevate him to a coordinator position in all those years gives me flashbacks of Zampese more than anything.  Then again, at this time we may as well just hope for the best.

Oh, I know buddy....I was just trying to provide some optimism.  I honestly never knew what anyone saw in Austin, and his style was setting records here for ineptitude.  And that was with some talent on the roster.  The way the defense responded (somewhat) after his departure gave me some hope for this year.

I guess I am just trying to trust that what ZT wants, Lou can provide, and the two guys that played for him at the Giants seem to like him.  (Webb and Wynn).  

It is so much more fun waiting to see what unfolds compared to hoping out leopard would change his spots.  I know that doesn't speak very highly of the old regime, and I am grateful for what they accomplished here, but it is time for a more youthful approach to see if they can't take it to the next level.  So, yeah, I am actually happier with an unknown over a boring known.  

(06-03-2019, 09:18 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: It is so much more fun waiting to see what unfolds compared to hoping out leopard would change his spots.  I know that doesn't speak very highly of the old regime, and I am grateful for what they accomplished here, but it is time for a more youthful approach to see if they can't take it to the next level.  So, yeah, I am actually happier with an unknown over a boring known.  

That's pretty much how I see it.  I realize though that ZT's newness and lack of a resume at this level (combined with a league-wide skepticism of our front office) lead to him not getting the top picks of coordinators right off the bat.  Teams can turn around on a dime in the NFL, but this whole ZT thing is clearly a long-term investment, too.

I'm keeping my expectations guarded mostly because if we are dead-set on ZT being awesome and we don't have an awesome 2019 then people are likely to turn on the players unfairly.  That's fandom, though.  As we see it now 2016-2018 was a waste of time because of our coaching, and now that we've fixed that we will need a new head on the chopping block if things aren't peachy keen in 2019.  Hey, that rhymed. 

(06-03-2019, 09:18 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Oh, I know buddy....I was just trying to provide some optimism.  I honestly never knew what anyone saw in Austin, and his style was setting records here for ineptitude.  And that was with some talent on the roster.  The way the defense responded (somewhat) after his departure gave me some hope for this year.

I guess I am just trying to trust that what ZT wants, Lou can provide, and the two guys that played for him at the Giants seem to like him.  (Webb and Wynn).  

It is so much more fun waiting to see what unfolds compared to hoping out leopard would change his spots.  I know that doesn't speak very highly of the old regime, and I am grateful for what they accomplished here, but it is time for a more youthful approach to see if they can't take it to the next level.  So, yeah, I am actually happier with an unknown over a boring known.  

I think Austin tried to get to cute and made the defense too complicated to see himself as some kind of Defensive Guru. Lou has dumbed it back down according to reports, so the players can play faster.... has to help.

(06-03-2019, 08:45 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I said the same thing about Jay Gruden...other than his name, what had he done in the NFL?  And no OTAs, with a rookie QB, and a team panned as likely to go 0-16?  And they went 9-7 and made the playoffs.  So who knows?  I am just excited at what i WON'T be seeing this year...or at least I would think I wouldn't see:  DBs playing 10 yards off a receiver on 3rd and 5.  LBs 6 yards off the LOS with stone feet on 3rd and 1.  Low % passes on 3rd and short.  The same plays run over and over again from the same formations.  A QB that never has designed roll-outs or waggles.  Zone defense when the strength of your defense is your CBs, who are better at man coverage.  

I can't wait to see what they get out of these players.  I have long thought we had the talent, but we were coached by a man that would have been a Super Bowl Champion...in the 70s.  

Please, Lou, blitz a bit more and more creatively.  Play to your team's strengths.  Create competition at every position and let the best players play.

This is why you have to play the games.
What if a key player(s) from the other team are hurt and miss the game or even during the game against the Bengals?

It can change the whole way the game is played.

(06-03-2019, 01:57 AM)grampahol Wrote: I dunno.. 25 is soooo old these days. My grandson is just a year old so by the time he reaches 25 all these 25 year old players will be long gone.. That's it.. 25 is way over the hill these days. Better start looking for players in the maternity wards..

you don't get many 25 year olds that have already been in the league for 4.

(06-03-2019, 12:56 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I think Austin tried to get to cute and made the defense too complicated to see himself as some kind of Defensive Guru. Lou has dumbed it back down according to reports, so the players can play faster.... has to help.

And, hopefully, buried the stupid soft zone forever.