(07-09-2019, 01:38 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Rams also happened to run over a 100 more offensive plays than the Bengals did during the regular season last year.

But they only actually passed 26 more times, which is the pertinent info when we're talking about pass protection stats.

(07-09-2019, 01:46 PM)Whatever Wrote: But they only actually passed 26 more times, which is the pertinent info when we're talking about pass protection stats.

I see what you are saying, but you have to also look at the average time the QB had before throwing the ball.

And, none of this has anything to do with Ross not being consistent, once again. Green, Boyd, Eifert, Uzomah, Mixon and Bernard were all consistent in the passing game last season with that same OL, QBs and coaches.

(07-09-2019, 10:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Chad put up 1166 yards in his second season. Then he went on to 5 straight Pro Bowls which included 2 First-Team All-Pros.
I'd say Ross is more like Peter Warrick if we are comparing to former high draft picks of the Bengals, but even then Warrick put up 592+ yards in each of his first four seasons.

I really liked the Ross pick and thought he would become a difference maker, but this is a make-or-break year for him. If he can't catch on in Taylor's scheme, it shows it wasn't Marvin holding him back,

Do you know who Chad credits for a great deal of his success?  He said Jon Kitna pulled him aside and repeatedly worked with him after practice until they got the timing and route tree down.  Kitna is one of the most underrated football minds that breezed through Cincinnati.  He did a pretty damn good job with a very limited amount of athleticism.  I wish he had been able to stay around as a coach.  My point of bringing up Kitna was that Chad had athleticism galore, but struggled with the playbook and nuances of being an NFL wide receiver.  Kitna made a point to give him extra work and help him.  I'm not saying our existing coaches aren't trying to work with Ross, but I don't care what anyone says...Ross was not Marvin's choice (he wanted Reuben Foster) and that was very apparent in a lot of his dealings with Ross.  
Ross didn't help himself with the childish "healthy scratch" post on social media, but it DID show him dusting guys.  And I am sure after that stunt that he was pretty strongly planted in the dog house.  
We can revisit all of this after a year under ZT.  Hoping for the best.  

if Ross doesnt get hurt vs the Falcons with that groin strain I think he continues to have a productive season.
i think.his arrow was trending up.

(07-09-2019, 01:51 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I see what you are saying, but you have to also look at the average time the QB had before throwing the ball.

And, none of this has anything to do with Ross not being consistent, once again. Green, Boyd, Eifert, Uzomah, Mixon and Bernard were all consistent in the passing game last season with that same OL, QBs and coaches.

We can look at time to throw, but the Bengals were also playing from behind much of the time due to a bad defense.  That lets the DL tee off on the pass rush.  The Rams often had the lead so they could force teams to play both the run and the pass.

This thread went off topic quite awhile back. Not sure who the culprit was.

(07-09-2019, 01:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Who needs silly old stats when we can just have someone pull an opinion out of thin air.

You glossed over the "mixed" part in stats.

I was trying to be kind and not say "cherry picked".

If you're going to use them then you're going to have to accept those that don't work in your favor as well.

You just can't dismiss and act if it's bogus.

By the way... did you really forget some famous horrid stats that were posted mid season last year or do you want me to dig them up?

It's really not that hard to find.

There are actually some Mixon runs that were hindered by poor to bad blocking.

Designed and terribly executed yet he still managed to get production.

The difference between a solid gain and a long TD if executed properly.  That's by the better part of the O-Line unit.

Let's just put it this way.

I'll let go of my "straw man" thoughts if you guys stop trying to be snake oil salesmen.

Deal?!?

(07-09-2019, 06:42 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: You glossed over the "mixed" part in stats.

I was trying to be kind and not say "cherry picked".

If you're going to use them then you're going to have to accept those that don't work in your favor as well.

You just can't dismiss and act if it's bogus.

By the way... did you really forget some famous horrid stats that were posted mid season last year or do you want me to dig them up?

It's really not that hard to find.

There are actually some Mixon runs that were hindered by poor to bad blocking.

Designed and terribly executed yet he still managed to get production.

The difference between a solid gain and a long TD if executed properly.  That's by the better part of the O-Line unit.

Let's just put it this way.

I'll let go of my "straw man" thoughts if you guys stop trying to be snake oil salesmen.

Deal?!?

The issue with your "cherry picked" stats argument is that no stats that contradict mine have been introduced.  People are arguing that hurries drags our OL grade down, but nobody has provided any actual statistics on hurries.  Basically, you have a group of people in this debate relying on an "appeal to authority" fallacy(in this case PFF rankings).  It's been pointed out that our OL stats are much higher on average than our PFF rating, to which the counter argument is "Well, we must have given up a bunch of QB Hurries to justify that ranking, but I can't tell you how many and how that compares to other teams in the league."

You can make the Mixon argument about compensating for bad blocking, but the Rams are argued to have a great OL and Todd Gurley is an elite RB.  Mixon and Gurley both averaged 4.9 ypc last year.  Statistics don't jive with that argument.

You can't seriously tell someone in a debate that you should be permitted to use logic fallacies because you can't or won't produce facts that support your position.  

(07-04-2019, 04:33 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I suppose it's possible Ross is just a dud at practice, but the guy just seems like a real wild card when he's involved in a play.  How many boring plays have involved John Ross?  Any time the ball is headed his way you just hold your breath and await the TD or turnover.  I wouldn't mind if they worked him into the rotation more, but I'm watching for the entertainment of it all.  If I had my way the guy would be on the field a lot AND he'd be returning kicks and punts because holy crap, how much would your bum pucker every time the ball was sailing his way?  

With that being said, we can go down the list of Ross excuses...

2017 - he's a rookie, Marvin hates him
2018 - he's still sort of a rookie, Marvin hates him and he needs a new system
2019 - he's got to learn a new system, he barely played with Dalton....maybe ZT will hate him?
2020 onward - If we let Ross go he's gonna go to the Steelers/Patriots and they'll coach him up and make us sorry

The John Ross situation kind of reminds of the issues we had with Jerome Simpson. 

(07-04-2019, 05:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am the guy who always says you can't judge any player by his roookie season.  A lot of very good players have done nothing their first year.   Some even take more than a year to fully develop, but if they are on their way to a big career you will see a big improvement in the second year.  Other than the TDs Ross was horrible last year.  I know "catch percentage" has not been around for a real long time, but I don't recall ever seeing one as low as Ross's last year (36.2).  And if you take away his five catches on 6 targets inside the 10 it drops to 30.2.  You can't blame poor QB play because none of our other WRs had catch rates anywhere near that low.

Ross's efficiency inside the ten last year is one of the most puzzling things I have ever seen.  It is harder to get open inside the ten because the defense has so much less area to cover.  If his td rate was due to some skill then he would be killing it between the twenties where he would have more room to move.  It had to be just some weird coincidence involving coverage matchups in the red zone.

Ross played almost every snap the second half of the season.  Overall he averaged 46 snaps for his 13 games (Bengals averaged 59 offensive plays per game).  He only had 19 fewer targets than Green (58 to 77) and had more targets than the next two WRs (Erickson, Core) combined.  Ross had more targets than any of our RBs.  Uzomah had just 6 more targets than Ross but more than twice as many receptions (43 to 21) and yards (439 to 210).  It wasn't like Ross was stuck on the bench or the QBs wouldn't throw to him.  He just was not very good.

Of course there is still a chance that Ross blossoms into a star.  Adam Thielen did not miss a game his first two seasons but had fewer catches (20) than Ross (21).  But Thielen's catch percentage was in the 60's each of his first two years.  It is possible that Ross will have a breakout season, but I'd call it a real long shot.

His production in the red zone came from a TINY sample size. 16 games. If he continues to have that type of production this year, then I would say its puzzling. It is interesting none the less.  

Regardless, my beef with Ross is that I continually saw a lack of effort from his last year when balls were thrown his way. There is no way to measure it other than with my eyes, but I swear I saw him give up on plays regularly and not exert a ton of effort when the ball wasnt placed directly in his bread basket. You have to wonder if this is translating over to his off the field prep.

The guy just doesn't have the winners mentality/competitiveness that makes you a good player.

(07-07-2019, 02:07 PM)Whatever Wrote: Lap said Price has bulked up a lot, especially in his lower body, so we'll have to see what he can do with big NT's this year.

Price said this off-season that OSU runs a very simple offense and he was having a lot of trouble trying to get the offense down last year, but feels more comfortable this year.  Given that, I really don't have high hopes for MJ being an immediate contributor, but he definitely has the tools to develop into one in a year or two.

Good God. He's a center. Learn the offense? Just move your man forward away from the QB. These athletes want us to think "learning the offense" or "learning the playbook" is rocket science or something. 

(07-09-2019, 02:40 PM)Whatever Wrote: We can look at time to throw, but the Bengals were also playing from behind much of the time due to a bad defense.  That lets the DL tee off on the pass rush.  The Rams often had the lead so they could force teams to play both the run and the pass.

This thread went off topic quite awhile back. Not sure who the culprit was.

The offensive line was the worst in the league 2 years ago too.

There's no way anyone that is unbiased would look at the Bengals offensive line and think it is good or even average by any stretch.

(07-10-2019, 12:01 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Good God. He's a center. Learn the offense? Just move your man forward away from the QB. These athletes want us to think "learning the offense" or "learning the playbook" is rocket science or something. 

Isn’t Center the hardest position on the OL to learn for a rookie though?

(07-10-2019, 01:11 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Isn’t Center the hardest position on the OL to learn for a rookie though?

Rookie Centers and Tackles seem to be the ones that really struggle early.

Guards seem to have success early.

(07-10-2019, 01:11 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Isn’t Center the hardest position on the OL to learn for a rookie though?

It is.  Center is the QB of the oline.  He is responsible for calling out protections, etc.  Then, you have to get the snap right before you do anything.  It's nowhere near as easy as folks think.  I played some backup center in high school, moving from G, it wasn't the easiest transition.

(07-10-2019, 01:20 PM)Wyche Wrote: It is.  Center is the QB of the oline.  He is responsible for calling out protections, etc.  Then, you have to get the snap right before you do anything.  It's nowhere near as easy as folks think.  I played some backup center in high school, moving from G, it wasn't the easiest transition.

Honestly, I think teams are better off with veteran Centers. Starting Price at Guard may have made sense, IF we had a better Center option...which we didn't.

(07-10-2019, 01:02 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The offensive line was the worst in the league 2 years ago too.

There's no way anyone that is unbiased would look at the Bengals offensive line and think it is good or even average by any stretch.

Well, you're not going to get an argument from me that we had one of the worst OL's in the league in 2017.  Stats would also bear that out.  We were 30th in ypc and 19th in Sacks Allowed, but were only 25th in Pass Attempts.

I don't think anyone is unbiased in this discussion. There's lots of people that are being overly critical to justify their positions that Zeitler and Whit shouldn't have been let go, they didn't put enough draft picks into the OL, and/or they didn't spend enough money on the OL in FA.  Whether those people will admit that bias is another matter. 

(07-10-2019, 01:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly, I think teams are better off with veteran Centers. Starting Price at Guard may have made sense, IF we had a better Center option...which we didn't.

I agree.....and that may be a big part of why Hopkins outplayed him while he was in.

(07-10-2019, 01:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly, I think teams are better off with veteran Centers. Starting Price at Guard may have made sense, IF we had a better Center option...which we didn't.

One could argue Hopkins was a good C option but it (probably) wasn't seen on the field at this time last year.
With the way the game is now, it's important to have a solid-or-better C and also OTs due to the learning curve. Guards seem to be easier to find at least solid ones.

(07-10-2019, 12:01 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Good God. He's a center. Learn the offense? Just move your man forward away from the QB. These athletes want us to think "learning the offense" or "learning the playbook" is rocket science or something. 

Do you remember when Kyle Cook got injured and it seemed like they tried to force him back into the lineup before he was ready?  Trevor Robinson looked like he was blocking better, but the fact was the Bengals playbook was limited while he was in there.

Good defensive coordinators are masters at disguising schemes, stunts, and blitzes.  The Center is the one who has to recognize what is going on and call out any adjustments to the blocking schemes.  It is just like yung QBs struggling to recognized disguised coverages pre-snap.

(07-10-2019, 02:18 PM)Whatever Wrote: Well, you're not going to get an argument from me that we had one of the worst OL's in the league in 2017.  Stats would also bear that out.  We were 30th in ypc and 19th in Sacks Allowed, but were only 25th in Pass Attempts.

I don't think anyone is unbiased in this discussion. There's lots of people that are being overly critical to justify their positions that Zeitler and Whit shouldn't have been let go, they didn't put enough draft picks into the OL, and/or they didn't spend enough money on the OL in FA.  Whether those people will admit that bias is another matter. 

Honestly, letting Whitworth go at his age wasn't so bad. It's the fact that we whiff on draft picks at a fairly high rate recently that's bad. Simply put, we need more quality scouts.

Zeitler? I advocated trying to extend him BEFORE DeCastro or franchise tagging him. The Bengals just don't seem to value Guards highly.