(09-30-2015, 06:43 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Define efficient in this case.
New England scored more points in the season.
Had a higher overall quality of offense. 
Fewer fumbles and interceptions.

More efficient.

Now if you are referring strictly to QB rating, then you absolutely have to factor in the 200 more attempts Brady had over Wilson. 

Seahawks were much more efficient in the run game and the pass game.

Now are you going to choose the more efficient Seahawks offense or the more volume NE offense?

How about a simple what QB would you rather have in your offense. 2013 Brady who was much less efficient or 2013 Wilson who was much more efficient?

Efficiency doesn't = who's better. Passer rating = efficiency.

(09-30-2015, 06:53 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Seahawks were much more efficient in the run game and the pass game.

Now are you going to choose the more efficient Seahawks offense or the more volume NE offense?

How about a simple what QB would you rather have in your offense. 2013 Brady who was much less efficient or 2013 Wilson who was much more efficient?

Efficiency doesn't = who's better. Passer rating = efficiency.

Seahawks were not better or more efficient in the pass game. 
They had a higher turnover ratio
They scored fewer points. 

You are completely ignoring the other factors here. 

Again you are completely ignoring the vast differences in attempts.

(09-30-2015, 08:37 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Seahawks were not better or more efficient in the pass game. 
They had a higher turnover ratio
They scored fewer points. 

You are completely ignoring the other factors here. 

Again you are completely ignoring the vast differences in attempts.

The vast difference in attempts is what makes the Seahawks more efficient. That's what passer rating is a formula for.

(09-30-2015, 06:35 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: In 2013 Seattle had a much more efficient offense than New England, but New England scored more points. So you would have taken Seattles offense over NEs in 2013?

Did New England win the Super Bowl?

(09-30-2015, 06:53 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Efficiency doesn't = who's better. Passer rating = efficiency.

Efficient doesn't mean game manager. That's where your whole argument fails. 

Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning

Both efficient. Both always at the top of passer rating.

(09-30-2015, 11:14 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Efficient doesn't mean game manager. That's where your whole argument fails. 

Aaron Rodgers
Peyton Manning

Both efficient. Both always at the top of passer rating.

But that's where passer rating fails. It makes game managers look better than what they are just because they throw less passes.

(09-30-2015, 11:09 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Did New England win the Super Bowl?

If the Patriots had the Seahawks defense that year they would have blown everyone out.

(09-30-2015, 11:18 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: But that's where passer rating fails. It makes game managers look better than what they are just because they throw less passes.

Nope. He still has to complete the passes. Passer rating doesn't make anyone look better. They make themselves look better or worse.

(09-30-2015, 11:43 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Nope. He still has to complete the passes. Passer rating doesn't make anyone look better. They make themselves look better or worse.

Passer rating makes people who throw the ball less look better because diminishing returns. Someone could have a higher completion percentage, and higher yards / fewer INTs and still have a lower passer rating.

(09-30-2015, 11:19 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: If the Patriots had the Seahawks defense that year they would have blown everyone out.

That's what gave the Seahawks "efficiency" 
They only had to do so much. 
They scored 2 TD it was cruise control the rest of the way. 

Where as NE has been one of the models of "efficient" offenses. 
They scored on a higher percentage of plays. 
They scored more.
They turned it over fewer times.

(09-30-2015, 02:01 PM)jj22 Wrote: You just have the national media setting narratives and Bengals fans follow. Dalton was on the same tear in 2013 ended with career and record setting numbers, but the national media called him a bum (said he was below average, Jaws ranked him below Bradford, Stafford, Cutler, Kaep) and told us he should be cut and we should be in the market of a new qb (hello Carr/Bridgewater/Johnny football) fans ran with it. It looks like he will have 2013 numbers again this year and the media tells us he's turned the corner and those same fans run wit that narrative. If you've watched Dalton you know his ceiling and we are seeing it. We've seen it before. It's nothing new, the consistency maybe but it's only been 3 games. Those national media heads acting like it's a new Dalton, just are out to cover for their unfair narrative of his career accomplishments.

Fact is Dalton has been a very successful qb, and shouldn't't be ashamed of his career as a 2nd round draft pick. There are many teams, 28 other ones, who wish they were lucky enough to have a below average qb. Why? Cause only 4 other teams have made the playoffs back to back years the last 4 (and looking like 5) years. It's time the national media focuses on the qb's of those other 28 teams. Not one of the big 4.

The problem with Dalton isn't so much the regular season as much as it is nationally televised games and the post season. More of the media watch those games. Dalton has yet have even an average post season game. His best QB stat year was 2013, but he ended it with a 4 turnover game at home against the Chargers.

We all hope this gets turned around. The first 3 games look promising. The problem is that we won't really know how he's going play crossing that bridge until we get to it.

The media doesn't remember last year's games against the Ravens and most of them never saw those games. The talking heads remember the prime time game on Thursday night against Cleveland and the low production playoff game against the Colts. They might remember the Denver game last year, but I doubt it because it doesn't fit the image they have of Dalton and, besides, Manning was playing hurt.

The only way he's going to shake this images is to have some good post season games. It will take more than one though.

(09-30-2015, 06:22 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Andy has played better in 2015 than he ever has in his career. This is just a case of you watching the stat sheets and the rest of us watching the games.

Stop the bullshit with the last paragraph, it's just a total waste of an argument because it makes you look like a complete joke. Nobody has ever said the wins are on the team but the losses are on Andy, so grow up and stop making shit up. Blatantly lying just makes you look stupid and doesn't help your argument. This is the exact bullshit that you always pull that makes you look silly in the Andy debates. You think you're going to write a "gotcha!" post by putting words into others' mouths.

Okay, here we go, I'll play the jj game. As always jj, we know the rules. Wins are on Andy, but losses are on the team. Maybe you should stop blaming the team for everything bad and giving Andy too much credit for everything. You need to stop calling him elite and stop saying that he's better than Joe Montana. You shouldn't say that he's the greatest quarterback of all time because that's wrong.

See? Are my arguments better now that I'm just making shit up?

Nobody is just watching the stat sheet. He won Offensive player of the month award for a reason. He was playing great the month of October in 2013. Big wins (last second drives) vs the Lions, Bills etc, big throws downfield for chunk yardage. Exactly who wasn't watching him that month (or maybe you really don't remember)? You are the only one denying that. And that's fine. Your entitled to your opinion.

I have to chuckle at known Dalton haters having to act like this is a new Dalton. Because he is playing good, and it doesn't fit their narrative that he's a bum, and a bottom 10 qb in the league. I expect it out of pundits, not fans who should have been watching him play the last 4 years and should know he's had elite stretches/games before.

By the way as many stats you throw around, don't tell me to not use stats when they don't benefit your argument. That's lame for the record, and you can do a little better than that with your comebacks. Now go back to arguing passer ratings (a stat) and remember telling me how I need to ignore stat in the same breath.

(10-01-2015, 09:44 AM)jj22 Wrote: Nobody is just watching the stat sheet. He won Offensive player of the month award for a reason. He was playing great the month of October in 2013. Big wins (last second drives) vs the Lions, Bills etc. You are the only one denying that. And that's fine. Your entitled to your opinion. By the way as many stats you throw around, don't tell me to not use stats when they don't benefit your argument. That's lame for the record, and you can do a little better than that with your comebacks. Now go back to arguing passer ratings (a stat) and remember telling me how I need to ignore stat in the same breath.

I never said to not use stats, just don't act like stats are the only thing to consider when discussing how well a QB is playing. Stats are great to discuss, but you're ignoring what Andy is putting on the field in 2015 for some reason.

Andy looks like a transformed QB in 2015 and is showing us some stuff that we've NEVER seen from him, not even in October 2013. It's nothing guaranteed to continue, but it has absolutely happened thus far. Most people throughout many threads have mentioned such things and have noticed huge differences in his performances this season. You're the first person that I've seen to disagree, but hey, you probably know better than EVERYBODY else, right?

Andy Dalton is playing the best football of his professional career right now, and nothing you say will change that. I'll stick to watching the games AND the stats while evaluating his play and you can talk about his awards in 2013 as your defense.

Fair enough Dj. I just don't think he can maintain it and folks propping him up now are going to turn on him something vicious soon. And suddenly he'll be a bum, one of the worse qb's in the league, and all these good qualities that he's had but just hasn't been able to be consistent with will be forgotten. Much like his October of 2013 was (when pundits were quick to act like we needed to draft his replacement that offseason). And I know you think I'm just looking at stats, but that was the month that I saw what you guys are now seeing and I've defended Daltons abilities ever since. I had those games dvr'd and rewatched them that offseason over and over again, so I do remember and Dalton was slinging it that month on par with how he is now.

I'm going to wait until he has a longer stretch (at least 5 games) before I'm sold that he's turned a corner. He's had these stretches before, he just can't maintain them. I have seen anything yet that makes me certain he can. But we're about to see in a couple more weeks.

Question. Do you think he'll win the offensive player of the month award for September? He certainly deserves it for the AFC if they choose a qb. Maybe October of 2013 didn't have that many candidates if you think that award meant nothing.

Update. He didn't win. The award went to Brady.

(10-01-2015, 02:07 PM)jj22 Wrote: Fair enough Dj. I just don't think he can maintain it and folks propping him up now are going to turn on him something vicious soon. And suddenly he'll be a bum, one of the worse qb's in the league, and all these good qualities that he's had but just hasn't been able to be consistent  with will be forgotten. Much like his October of 2013 was (when pundits were quick to act like we needed to draft his replacement that offseason). And I know you think I'm just looking at stats, but that was the month that I saw what you guys are now seeing and I've defended Daltons abilities ever since. I had those games dvr'd and rewatched them that offseason over and over again, so I do remember and Dalton was slinging it that month on par with how he is now.

I'm going to wait until he has a longer stretch (at least 5 games) before I'm sold that he's turned a corner. He's had these stretches before, he just can't maintain them. I have seen anything yet that makes me certain he can. But we're about to see in a couple more weeks.

Question. Do you think he'll win the offensive player of the month award for September? He certainly deserves it for the AFC if they choose a qb. Maybe October of 2013 didn't have that many candidates if you think that award meant nothing.

I don't think he'll win the award for this September because there are some other guys playing at an insane level as well. I can see Tom Brady getting the nod for the offensive player of the month even though it could be argued that what Andy has been doing has been more impressive. I'd have to go back and see what players around the league were up to in 2013 around that time, but it was probably a case of Andy putting up pretty numbers while not many other guys had quite enough to warrant the selection.

I've never seen Andy make some of the throws that he has this year, not even in October of 2013. I really haven't. His pocket awareness is on par with, if not better than the first few games of 2014. The touch he has been putting on his passes has been insane this season. He has been constantly putting balls where only his receivers can catch them. He has been throwing less "bad passes" over this 3 game stretch than his October 2013. We can agree to disagree on this, but I've watched his entire 2013 season quite a few times and I honestly don't remember ever seeing a QB on the Bengals that looked like Andy does in 2015. IMO, his game against the Vikings in 2013 was better than any of his others that season, I think he made some of the best plays and looked to be making some of his sharpest passes in that game.

I do agree with the thought of people turning on him the second he starts to make mistakes. It's definitely going to happen, but I won't be one of them unless he consistently plays poorly for more than just 1 random game. People are going to flip the first time he has a game with 2 INTs and a few other bad throws, especially if the team loses. BUT, I see no reason that he will just start throwing a bunch of inaccurate passes and making poor decisions after looking like a completely transformed QB to begin the year. He's going to have a bad game here and there, but I don't believe it will be as bad as his usual "bad game" tends to be. As you said, we will see very soon.

The sheer number of weapons available should keep him from falling off a cliff any time soon.

The biggest things that stick out to me as different about Andy this year are ball placement, pocket awareness, more pump fakes, better progression, throwing a few away, and he did not get rattled at all Sunday when things could've (and have) gone south in a hurry. It almost seemed like he relished the moment......and that was good to see. I've never seen the facial expressions on Andy that we saw Sunday. The man simply looked in control, laser focused, and even a bit pissed off.

(10-01-2015, 09:54 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I never said to not use stats, just don't act like stats are the only thing to consider when discussing how well a QB is playing. Stats are great to discuss, but you're ignoring what Andy is putting on the field in 2015 for some reason.

Andy looks like a transformed QB in 2015 and is showing us some stuff that we've NEVER seen from him, not even in October 2013. It's nothing guaranteed to continue, but it has absolutely happened thus far. Most people throughout many threads have mentioned such things and have noticed huge differences in his performances this season. You're the first person that I've seen to disagree, but hey, you probably know better than EVERYBODY else, right?

Andy Dalton is playing the best football of his professional career right now, and nothing you say will change that. I'll stick to watching the games AND the stats while evaluating his play and you can talk about his awards in 2013 as your defense.

Maybe he's doing things you never seen, because he actually has weapons

The only difference I see in Dalton right now is his pocket presence.

Whether Dalton always has been this good, but didn't have the weapons (injured);
Is a new and improved 2.0 model Andy Dalton this year;
Or more of what I like to think - a combination of both (more weapons healthy and available) combined with (continued development as he continues to grow in this league)...

I'd just like to say I'm excited about the possibilities of this season, and I trust Andy Dalton to take us deep if not all the way (which is a real possibility this year). There have been those in the past who said they'd trade Dalton straight up for some other qb (several have been mentioned) - or that we should draft another... I just want to point out that Cleveland has tried that trick about a half dozen times already. Finding a decent QB in the draft isn't as easy as all that and Cleveland has had higher draft picks than we're going to see in a long time, because they keep striking out drafting QB's. Other teams have had alot of difficulty over the years as well: Washington, Minnesota, Jacksonville, Miami, etc. Truth is - we have one of the best QB's in the league and a fan base that doesn't believe it yet. Understand, this is a more mature Andy Dalton who has continued developing nicely and has double the new weapons this year compared to most years based on not only draft but key players coming back we didn't have last year. I wouldn't look to draft anyone else, trade him for anyone else - Andy is leading this team and I like where it's going. The doubters will have room to jump on the bandwagon during the post-season, but I'm on it now.

(10-01-2015, 02:28 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I've never seen Andy make some of the throws that he has this year, not even in October of 2013. 

This is the only part of your post that I disagree with. Andy has not made any "new" throws this year. Every single throw he's attempted, he's attempted before. If you want to say you've not seen so many non-bad passes or more consistent play or add some other quantifier, okay (for example, his ball placement has never been better), but stop with the nonsense that Dalton is making throws he's never made before. That's just not true.