(07-27-2019, 09:56 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Wrong. Just last season on a Thursday night game against the Ravens, Dalton's 4 TDs and 107.7 QB rating are the reason the Bengals won the game. Unless you want to say that it was Mixon's and Bernard's combined 111 yards rushing and 0 TDs that was the reason for the win.

Dalton obviously made the passes, and he played well, but AJ was the reason we won. When a WR has 3 TD in one game he should get the most credit.

I remember lurking on a Ravens forum after that game and they were all bitching about one specific Bengal, and it wasn’t Andy Dalton...

(07-26-2019, 09:47 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Ya, i don't think either of them were/are really good in big moments. There was that whole brain-type article that came out about Palmer, and it was pretty spot on. 

But...

In Carson's 2nd start as an NFL QB, on a Sunday night game (i guess Marv did win a Sun night game) he drove the team down the field, going 7-8 passing with under 2:00 on the clock and the Bengals kicked the GWFG with :07 on the clock against the Dolphins. His overall stats for the game were pretty much poop but that last drive was clutch.

Dalton has had a moment like that, that was bigger than a simple prime-time game. In a 2012 game @ Steelers that basically was a playoff game (win you're in, lose you're out), Dalton completed a clutch 21 yard dime to AJ Green with 14 seconds left to set up the game-winning FG. 

Anyways, so you agree both were ass in prime-time, yet you don't wonder if Marv had anything to do with that?

Even though Palmer's prime-time passer rating improved exponentially after he left? All I'll say is the next couple seasons should be very interesting.

(07-27-2019, 10:17 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Dalton obviously made the passes, and he played well, but AJ was the reason we won. When a WR has 3 TD in one game he should get the most credit.

I remember lurking on a Ravens forum after that game and they were all bitching about one specific Bengal, and it wasn’t Andy Dalton...

Dalton had a really good first half, then like always it was hold on for dear life at the end. I don't know why people just can't seem to grasp that i'm looking for that prime time or playoff game where two good teams are battling it out till the end and one QB just keeps making the throws to help his team pull it out.

He has games like that on Sunday afternoon, just not under the lights when everyone is watching. 

It's like i'm speaking string theory in chinese or something. 

(07-27-2019, 08:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Dalton has had a moment like that, that was bigger than a simple prime-time game. In a 2012 game @ Steelers that basically was a playoff game (win you're in, lose you're out), Dalton completed a clutch 21 yard dime to AJ Green with 14 seconds left to set up the game-winning FG. 

Anyways, so you agree both were ass in prime-time, yet you don't wonder if Marv had anything to do with that?

Even though Palmer's prime-time passer rating improved exponentially after he left? All I'll say is the next couple seasons should be very interesting.

Yeah, earlier i alluded to the Steelers game. That was def his most clutch throw imo. 

I believe Marv had a whole lot to do with it but Dalton doesn't get a pass because, like i said with the ARI game on Sunday night, Dalton was on the field with the football in his hands and he missed 2 passes on that final FG drive. 

He makes those throws and the outcome is likely different. If nothing else, he has 2 drives at the end of the game for TDs to put his team up and there's not much more you can do than that. That game came down to him not being clutch enough on that last drive to put the team ahead.

(07-27-2019, 09:53 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Dalton had a really good first half, then like always it was hold on for dear life at the end. I don't know why people just can't seem to grasp that i'm looking for that prime time or playoff game where two good teams are battling it out till the end and one QB just keeps making the throws to help his team pull it out.

He has games like that on Sunday afternoon, just not under the lights when everyone is watching. 

It's like i'm speaking string theory in chinese or something. 

Yes, but earlier in this long long thread we pointed out that the prime-time woes were a thing long before Dalton was around. 

Until we see some prime-time games under the new regime, we can always lean on the fact that Marvin Lewis was a prime-time dud. I'm patient enough to wait for this upcoming season to see if there is any improvement in performance on that front. We'll see!

To your point, I don't think there is a game anyone can pull up that fits your criteria and a great QB should be able to overcome poor coaching. I believe Andy Dalton is the mid-tier type of QB who is a direct reflection of his coaching staff and offensive scheme. He isn't the type of QB to improvise, throw a side-armed pass, and make an incredible unthinkable play to win the game. No, instead he is the type of QB who follows the game-plan and executes what the coaches tell him to do the way they want him to do it. I personally believe he has been stunted the past few years from the lack of offensive creativity in the building. Just my opinion tho. 

(07-28-2019, 01:45 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Yes, but earlier in this long long thread we pointed out that the prime-time woes were a thing long before Dalton was around. 

Until we see some prime-time games under the new regime, we can always lean on the fact that Marvin Lewis was a prime-time dud. I'm patient enough to wait for this upcoming season to see if there is any improvement in performance on that front. We'll see!

To your point, I don't think there is a game anyone can pull up that fits your criteria and a great QB should be able to overcome poor coaching. I believe Andy Dalton is the mid-tier type of QB who is a direct reflection of his coaching staff and offensive scheme. He isn't the type of QB to improvise, throw a side-armed pass, and make an incredible unthinkable play to win the game. No, instead he is the type of QB who follows the game-plan and executes what the coaches tell him to do the way they want him to do it. I personally believe he has been stunted the past few years from the lack of offensive creativity in the building. Just my opinion tho. 

I get the coaching prime time woe argument, it's been cited many times here. My only rebuttal against that is, Marv wasn't on the field throwing the ball. As referenced in the Arizona game example, Dalton missed 2 throws on the final drive that was the difference between a FG and a TD and the lead. 

No doubt, we will see if there's a difference in those games with how this coaching staff approaches and calls a game, but it still always comes down the QB making the throw when the play is called. 

(07-28-2019, 02:15 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I get the coaching prime time woe argument, it's been cited many times here. My only rebuttal against that is, Marv wasn't on the field throwing the ball. As referenced in the Arizona game example, Dalton missed 2 throws on the final drive that was the difference between a FG and a TD and the lead. 

No doubt, we will see if there's a difference in those games with how this coaching staff approaches and calls a game, but it still always comes down the QB making the throw when the play is called. 

Agreed, but the probability of the QB making the throw is higher when better plays are called, that's all i'm saying! Haha

(07-28-2019, 02:15 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I get the coaching prime time woe argument, it's been cited many times here. My only rebuttal against that is, Marv wasn't on the field throwing the ball. As referenced in the Arizona game example, Dalton missed 2 throws on the final drive that was the difference between a FG and a TD and the lead. 

No doubt, we will see if there's a difference in those games with how this coaching staff approaches and calls a game, but it still always comes down the QB making the throw when the play is called. 

We may never know how much coaching hurt or helped AD. ZT has never coached a game in college or NFL (head coach) so jury is out.

As for AD, yes the TEAM has not played well in prime time and AD was no exception. But, can we agree your arguments lose steam when you say he is not a leader and has not performed in the clutch. He is one of the leaders in 4th quarter comebacks to win games and that does not include games our defense was given the lead in the last 2 minutes, but could not hold it.

I can never help but think the Bengals many failures in "prime time" have been random and nothing more. It's not AS IF the game itself changes fundamentally in any way. Other teams don't have some great secret the Bengals do not have or better players for those games only. Coaching isn't fundamentally different for prime time games. The only other factor I can even think of, and it's been talked about to the point it has become a real conspiracy is officiating in those games.. Don't overlook how refs call certain games during a season.. 

(07-28-2019, 08:57 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: We may never know how much coaching hurt or helped AD. ZT has never coached a game in college or NFL (head coach) so jury is out.

As for AD, yes the TEAM has not played in prime time and AD was no exception. But, can we agree your arguments lose steam when you say he is not a leader and has not performed in the clutch. He is one of the leaders in 4th quarter comebacks to win games and that does not include games our defense was given the lead in the last 2 minutes, but could not hold it.

I wouldn't say he's not a leader, and he's really only hasn't been clutch in certain circumstances. But that is the one thing that keeps him from being considered as one of the better QBs in his career. 

It's pretty easy to argue that if he was as good under the lights as he's been on Sunday afternoon, he would be looked at in a better light by a lot of people that don't view him that way now. 

(07-28-2019, 09:28 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I wouldn't say he's not a leader, and he's really only hasn't been clutch in certain circumstances. But that is the one thing that keeps him from being considered as one of the better QBs in his career. 

It's pretty easy to argue that if he was as good under the lights as he's been on Sunday afternoon, he would be looked at in a better light by a lot of people that don't view him that way now. 

No doubt and AD is reaching or just reached Peyton Manning ineptness under the lights (playoffs). Itis about winning and took a long time for Manning to have success in the playoffs. it took a great running back and 2 great WR's as well. But, by no means an I comparing AD to Manning overall, just saying one was given a pass by many because he was a #1 pick overall while one was drafted in second round.

I think it is fair to say we see Ad's weaknesses and his strengths after 8 years, he is not elite, but he is a good NFL QB who manages games well and is a smart QB (he has to be as his arm strength and athleticism is also not elite). 

(07-27-2019, 09:57 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yeah, earlier i alluded to the Steelers game. That was def his most clutch throw imo. 

I believe Marv had a whole lot to do with it but Dalton doesn't get a pass because, like i said with the ARI game on Sunday night, Dalton was on the field with the football in his hands and he missed 2 passes on that final FG drive. 

He makes those throws and the outcome is likely different. If nothing else, he has 2 drives at the end of the game for TDs to put his team up and there's not much more you can do than that. That game came down to him not being clutch enough on that last drive to put the team ahead.

That's just where we differ. I give everyone that played under Marv a pass for PT and playoffs. Conservative game planning and schemes possibly (probably?) limited all our offensive player's chances at having "big throws", "big catches" and "big runs". Marvin is a proven choker. Possibly the choking-est coach in the history of sports. 

Until I see Dalton (and others) play under a different HC in those situations, I refuse to say "well Marvin was the choking-est coach ever, but the players should've overcame that". Seems silly to me. Either you think Marv was shitty in those situations and hurt the players chances, or you pin it on the players. Saying "both" seems like a cop out....at least until these players have a chance to prove themselves without that anchor around their necks.

(07-28-2019, 11:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: That's just where we differ. I give everyone that played under Marv a pass for PT and playoffs. Conservative game planning and schemes possibly (probably?) limited all our offensive player's chances at having "big throws", "big catches" and "big runs". Marvin is a proven choker. Possibly the choking-est coach in the history of sports. 

Until I see Dalton (and others) play under a different HC in those situations, I refuse to say "well Marvin was the choking-est coach ever, but the players should've overcame that". Seems silly to me. Either you think Marv was shitty in those situations and hurt the players chances, or you pin it on the players. Saying "both" seems like a cop out....at least until these players have a chance to prove themselves without that anchor around their necks.

What i'm saying is, Dalton was on the field, and he missed 2 throws on that last drive. One of them (the 2nd one) AJ actually caught, but it was kind of a circus catch at the goal line and he was out of bounds. 

Dalton was the only one that had the power to make or miss those throws. It had nothing to do with Marv, Mike or anyone else in the world at that moment. Dalton missed them all on his own. 

Year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after....

Well if AJ is out for a significant amount of time , then no make or break year for AD. He will not be expected to have a great year without his number one target and elite WR. It will be his 'make" or we don't know year again.

(07-28-2019, 11:37 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Well if AJ is out for a significant amount of time , then no make or break year for AD. He will not be expected to have a great year without his number one target and elite WR. It will be his 'make" or we don't know year again.

Yep. The excuse machine will be out in full force

(07-29-2019, 12:15 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Yep. The excuse machine will be out in full force

You have made your lack of respect for AD position well known. This thread wad started for those on the fence. If no AJ, then how can anyone dismiss no AJ nd expect AD to have a great year? Thus, you call it an excuse, I call it a fact no non HOF AB's perform as well without an elite receiver?

But, let me guess, you will give ZT a pass if the team has a bad year with no AJ????????????

(07-29-2019, 01:13 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You have made your lack of respect for AD position well known. This thread wad started for those on the fence. If no AJ, then how can anyone dismiss no AJ nd expect AD to have a great year? Thus, you call it an excuse, I call it a fact no non HOF AB's perform as well without an elite receiver?

But, let me guess, you will give ZT a pass if the team has a bad year with no AJ????????????

I'm giving AD and ZT a full pass on 2019...they are employed by the Bengals. 

(07-28-2019, 02:15 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I get the coaching prime time woe argument, it's been cited many times here. My only rebuttal against that is, Marv wasn't on the field throwing the ball. As referenced in the Arizona game example, Dalton missed 2 throws on the final drive that was the difference between a FG and a TD and the lead. 

No doubt, we will see if there's a difference in those games with how this coaching staff approaches and calls a game, but it still always comes down the QB making the throw when the play is called. 

All true.....but maybe if the games were called better, and critical errors (crucial penalties, missed assignments, other fundamental deficiencies under Marvin) weren't made at key points, there would have been no need for last second heroics.  

(07-27-2019, 09:53 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Dalton had a really good first half, then like always it was hold on for dear life at the end. I don't know why people just can't seem to grasp that i'm looking for that prime time or playoff game where two good teams are battling it out till the end and one QB just keeps making the throws to help his team pull it out.

He has games like that on Sunday afternoon, just not under the lights when everyone is watching. 

It's like i'm speaking string theory in chinese or something. 

So not only do 1:00 games not count neither do the first half of any games.