(08-05-2019, 02:31 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yep. Plus, it also seems that rfaulk is saying there's a single QB that is average and everyone else is above or below average.
I'm almost flabbergasted how you can come up with that. Average is easy to figure out. If there are 10 things, 5 and 6 would be considered average (in the middle). If there are 11 things 5 would be considered average (in the middle). That's how i come up with it.
That aside, it's pretty easy to figure out what i did. I took a number; 5,000 yards, 10,000 yards, etc., and posted where he ranked alongside QBs who had the same amount of yards, since 2011, in passer rating. Before that, i was looking for a game in prime time or the playoffs where he led the team to a win, by a last minute drive or an overall great performance.
Problem is, people who get 'the butthurt' when a Bengals player is shown in a negative light, don't want to discuss or refute what has been said or asked, they just want to soothe their butthurt.
If i were on the other side, i would acknowledge that he hasn't really done what i asked (because he hasn't), then i would point out that in several categories, he ranks very well among his peers.
Going on the 2,500 yard marker, since 2011 (72 QBs qualify), he's;
10th most in yards
10th most in TDs
2nd overall in 4th QTR comebacks, and
3rd in Game Winning Drives, only 1 behind Drew Brees.
Then i'd point out that his biggest shortcomings--something i used to do back in 2013--(besides not being able to step up under brighter lights) are, his completion percentage is only ranked 29th and he's thrown the 7th most INTs in that time. Those have ALWAYS been the 2 things that have kept him down the QB rating list. Again, something i always pointed out in 2013.
But again, too many people are worried about soothing the butthurt instead of debating a topic...and God forbid, agreeing with someone's less than glowing fact-based opinions.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(08-05-2019, 03:18 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'm almost flabbergasted how you can come up with that. Average is easy to figure out. If there are 10 things, 5 and 6 would be considered average (in the middle). If there are 11 things 5 would be considered average (in the middle). That's how i come up with it.
That aside, it's pretty easy to figure out what i did. I took a number; 5,000 yards, 10,000 yards, etc., and posted where he ranked alongside QBs who had the same amount of yards, since 2011, in passer rating. Before that, i was looking for a game in prime time or the playoffs where he led the team to a win, by a last minute drive or an overall great performance.
Problem is, people who get 'the butthurt' when a Bengals player is shown in a negative light, don't want to discuss or refute what has been said or asked, they just want to soothe their butthurt.
If i were on the other side, i would acknowledge that he hasn't really done what i asked (because he hasn't), then i would point out that in several categories, he ranks very well among his peers.
Going on the 2,500 yard marker, since 2011 (72 QBs qualify), he's;
10th most in yards
10th most in TDs
2nd overall in 4th QTR comebacks, and
3rd in Game Winning Drives, only 1 behind Drew Brees.
Then i'd point out that his biggest shortcomings--something i used to do back in 2013--(besides not being able to step up under brighter lights) are, his completion percentage is only ranked 29th and he's thrown the 7th most INTs in that time. Those have ALWAYS been the 2 things that have kept him down the QB rating list. Again, something i always pointed out in 2013.
But again, too many people are worried about soothing the butthurt instead of debating a topic...and God forbid, agreeing with someone's less than glowing fact-based opinions.
People who get butthurt usually write long posts in response to a single sentence.
(08-05-2019, 03:18 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Before that, i was looking for a game in prime time or the playoffs where he led the team to a win, by a last minute drive or an overall great performance.
If i were on the other side, i would acknowledge that he hasn't really done what i asked (because he hasn't),
Still wondering why a 4 td game against the number one defense in the league does not qualify as a "great performance".
Or 111.8 rating and 296 yds against a playoff team.
(08-05-2019, 04:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still wondering why a 4 td game against the number one defense in the league does not qualify as a "great performance".
Or 111.8 rating and 296 yds against a playoff team.
Why don't those count as "great performances"?
Because he only did that in the 1st half. We all know only bad QBs have performances like that in only a half of football.
(08-05-2019, 06:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: WTF difference does it make what in what half he threw the tds?
This is getting ridiculous.
"4 tds suck if they are all in one half. Every average QB throws 4 tds almost every game, derp."
With all the words i've typed, how the **** can you not understand what i'm saying?
4 TDs is obviously very good. A couple of Dalton's overall stats in prime time games have been very good, regardless of opponent. I'VE NEVER ONCE CLAIMED HE WAS INCAPABLE OF HAVING A GOOD GAME IN PRIME TIME.
But NONE of them have been clutch drives or throws at the end of a game to win it, and NONE of them have been shootouts where he flings the ball around for 4 quarters. THOSE ARE THE GAMES THAT ELEVATE QBS INTO UPPER TIERS. (right or wrong, THEY ARE)
Holey mother ***** dick shit on a crap infested moldy stick. It's like talking to a wall with you. I say multiple times Dalton is a good QB and i agree he's had some good numbers in games--1:00pm sunday and otherwise--but you just can't stop going on some ***** rant and making shit up because you can't stand to see anyone type anything bad about the Bengals QB. It's like you have a damn crush on the guy or something.
The whole reason that red-headed, jagnugget, smiley, let's have fun guys, underwhelming QB is not considered one of the better QBs in the league is because of his failures in pressure situations during playoff and prime time games, as well as his sub-par completion percentage and too many interceptions.
See what all of your stupid, made up, incomprehensible bullshit has caused? I'm calling Andy Dalton names.
You need help.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(08-05-2019, 10:24 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: With all the words i've typed, how the **** can you not understand what i'm saying?
4 TDs is obviously very good. A couple of Dalton's overall stats in prime time games have been very good, regardless of opponent. I'VE NEVER ONCE CLAIMED HE WAS INCAPABLE OF HAVING A GOOD GAME IN PRIME TIME.
But NONE of them have been clutch drives or throws at the end of a game to win it, and NONE of them have been shootouts where he flings the ball around for 4 quarters. THOSE ARE THE GAMES THAT ELEVATE QBS INTO UPPER TIERS. (right or wrong, THEY ARE)
Holey mother ***** dick shit on a crap infested moldy stick. It's like talking to a wall with you. I say multiple times Dalton is a good QB and i agree he's had some good numbers in games--1:00pm sunday and otherwise--but you just can't stop going on some ***** rant and making shit up because you can't stand to see anyone type anything bad about the Bengals QB. It's like you have a damn crush on the guy or something.
The whole reason that red-headed, jagnugget, smiley, let's have fun guys, underwhelming QB is not considered one of the better QBs in the league is because of his failures in pressure situations during playoff and prime time games, as well as his sub-par completion percentage and too many interceptions.
See what all of your stupid, made up, incomprehensible bullshit has caused? I'm calling Andy Dalton names.
(08-05-2019, 10:24 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: THOSE ARE THE GAMES THAT ELEVATE QBS INTO UPPER TIERS. (right or wrong, THEY ARE)
No they are not.
If you asked the average fan what single game elevated Ben Roethlisberger or Matt Ryan to greatness they would probably give you a blank stare. But on the other hand most people remember Tim Tebow winning a playoff game with an 80 td pass in overtime but no one considers him a great QB.
A QB's status is based on his overall body not on one clutch pass in one game. The only people who try to deny this are the one who want to rip Dalton.
(08-05-2019, 10:24 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'VE NEVER ONCE CLAIMED HE WAS INCAPABLE OF HAVING A GOOD GAME IN PRIME TIME.
(08-05-2019, 03:18 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I was looking for a game in prime time or the playoffs where he led the team to a win, by a last minute drive or an overall great performance.
If i were on the other side, i would acknowledge that he hasn't really done what i asked (because he hasn't),
Make up your mind.
I have been consistent. I say a 4 td game against the number one defense in the league is a great game. You say it isn't. When I ask you why not you claim you never said that. And you just keep spinning in circles.
So just so we are clear you are saying that a 4 td game against the number one defense in the league is not a great game, right? That must be what you mean because you clearly said Dalton has never had a great primetime game.
Quote:So what you're saying is that Dalton has only had 7 opportunities to prove whether or not he's clutch in big games. In 8 years. 7 opportunities but 14 throws on 19 drop backs. Sorry, you can't minimize it by just counting the number of games. It's the opportunities he's had.
...and it's highly debatable whether or not some of these were truly clutch situations. Down 10 on the last drive? (He can still make a throw to score and put pressure on the other team) That Giants game where Dalton was getting pummeled? You say he stood there like a statue, but where was he supposed to go? Ogbuehi got manhandled by JPP and there was nothing even resembling a pocket because the whole line was folding back like a cheap lawn chair. The only place for someone of Dalton's athleticism to run was backwards. Can't throw it out when you're in the hash marks. Besides a hyper athletic QB, I'm not sure who makes a play there. It doesn't just take a hyper athletic QB. Some QBs use their brain to make a quicker decision, some simply manipulate the pocket...hell, if your line is sucking that bad, take it on yourself to roll one way or the other and don't stand there like a sitting duck.
In the Cards game, Dalton led us back to tie the game after trailing 14 heading into the 4th. Even on the drive you claim he came up short, he went 3/6 for 48 yards with a 6 yard run to even get us in position to tie the game with a FG. If anything, Dalton was clutch as heck in this game. Except that he had the opportunity to put the team ahead and he couldn't make the thow at the end. (He's good enough to get close, but can't get over the top)
So again it goes back to: how many clutch scenarios in PT/playoffs has he really had? As many as i showed. And that doesn't even mention all the games he's had to look really good in losses. He doesn't even have a single game where he matches the opposing QB in a loss, like Cousins V Goff last year. People love to compare Dalton to Cousins.
I just showed you all the opportunities he's had at the end those games and he's not produced a win in any of them. It's not that he's missed a bunch and got it done a few/couple times, he's failed every time. There were a couple times in that group of games he only needed to make 1 throw and the narrative is completely different. How many examples do people need before they finally come to the conclusion that he's just a good QB that hasn't made a throw at the end of any of those games to pull it out? It's not a bash, it's just the reality. His only claim to fame is starting hot and hanging on for the win.
I mean, come on. He can't even make 1 throw to make a difference in a W and an L...in 8 years?
- It's still 7 opportunities to prove he's "clutch" in 8 years, while playing for the choking-est coach of all time. A coach who burdened the offense with his defense-first conservative nature. Even if you want to be cheap and look at "throws" it's still not a lot.
- No rational person says "down 10 on the last drive" is a clutch situation. You're better than this. You're just angry and you've dug yourself in.
- Manipulate what pocket?? Re-watch those sacks and you tell me where the "pocket" is (sacks start at 5:13):
On the first one, it looks like the best play was - at best - a 5 yard completion to Core (?), but he wouldn't have been able to step into that throw at all. On the second one, he did try to step up, but the line was a discombobulated mess. Nothing resembling a pocket. Boling got embarassed. So did both Tackles.
That's why I said a hyper athletic QB could've possibly made a play. A prime Mike Vick could've ran backwards away from the pressure, escaped and made a throw. What pocket QB makes a play there? Lets be real man.
- Andy led us to 31 points on the road in PT against a great opponent, almost entirely via his arm. That should've been good enough to win. Someone's defense choked. A guy who choked for 16 years with multiple QB's at the helm.
- "He doesn't even have a game where he matched the opposing QB in a loss" - You can't seriously believe that.
- I'll repeat - again - that he didn't have many opportunities to do what you're so surprised he didn't. 7 games in 8 years. Had he played under any coach worth a damn, he would've had plenty of PT/playoff games where he wasn't getting BLOWN OUT. Again, the next couple seasons should be very interesting. I can't wait for prime-time...even though I'd argue the rest of the team has more to prove in that time slot than Dalton, who went 4-8-1 in his last 13 prime-time games, despite posting a solid 89.6 rating with 20 TD's to 8 INT's.
(08-05-2019, 01:16 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Not necessarily. I prefer to see where he stands against other QBs with similar amounts of time and opportunity, to truly guage where he stands among them.
He wasn't just being compared to the best. He was being compared to everyone that had 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 and 20,000 yards.
Well I think - objectively - we can't just throw out QB's that actually played in the NFL and qualified each year in the passer rating category.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(08-06-2019, 05:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No they are not.
If you asked the average fan what single game elevated Ben Roethlisberger or Matt Ryan to greatness they would probably give you a blank stare. But on the other hand most people remember Tim Tebow winning a playoff game with an 80 td pass in overtime but no one considers him a great QB.
A QB's status is based on his overall body not on one clutch pass in one game. The only people who try to deny this are the one who want to rip Dalton.
Yes they are.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(08-06-2019, 05:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you asked the average fan what single game elevated Ben Roethlisberger or Matt Ryan to greatness they would probably give you a blank stare.
More stupidity.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(08-06-2019, 05:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Make up your mind.
I have been consistent. I say a 4 td game against the number one defense in the league is a great game. You say it isn't. When I ask you why not you claim you never said that. And you just keep spinning in circles.
So just so we are clear you are saying that a 4 td game against the number one defense in the league is not a great game, right? That must be what you mean because you clearly said Dalton has never had a great primetime game.
Learn to ***** read. I'm not gonna keep answering this bullshit.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(08-06-2019, 08:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: - No rational person says "down 10 on the last drive" is a clutch situation. You're better than this. You're just angry and you've dug yourself in.
- "He doesn't even have a game where he matched the opposing QB in a loss" - You can't seriously believe that.
-That's why i put what i did in parenthesis. It's getting to the point where i don't know why i bother repeating myself and have to explain everything that's being typed. To that specific example--off the top of my head--how many times have you seen a Roethlisberger or Luck just keep putting points on the board to put pressure on the other team...even though it was too little, too late? They still kept pressure on the other team. The only thing i'm mad about is the constant excuses for an average QB that has clearly and consistently comes up short when he needs to make a crucial throw in prime time and the playoffs. To quote my favorite TV series, ever; "..you just don't have what it takes".
-You're right. The game against the Cardinals would actually fit that criteria. That was the game that could have been pointed to where someone could say, "he's done it once under that lights, so he can do it again", then he goes and misses the most important throw of the game up to that point and they have to settle for the tie (and eventual loss) instead of going up by 4.
Which, of course, solidifies my point that he doesn't have what it takes to get over the top in crucial situations.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(08-07-2019, 02:18 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: More stupidity.
If it is stupid then just answer the question.
If QB greatness is defined by prime time games then you should be able to say off the top of your head what prime time performance made Ben and Matt great QBs.
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