(08-20-2019, 10:00 AM)ochocincos Wrote: That's fair, but once again it's not his fault he was drafted that high. That's the Bengals' fault. The dude was a game changer when on the field at Washington. He had 81 receptions and 18 TDs his final year. They knew how to utilize his skill set properly.

What can't be disputed:
- Ross's injuries have kept him from the field thus far
- Ross hiding his injury his rookie year didn't help matters
- Ross's lack of availability has limited his ability to learn the offense enough that he still had (has?) mishaps when actually on the field.

Regarding using injury though as for a reason why a player wasn't worth a 1st round pick, I think that's unfair. Would you say the same about Eifert? Eifert wasn't some perennial 700+ yard TE in his rookie deal. His career has been derailed by injuries too. But his talent justified a 1st round pick. You'll never know if or when injuries occur. And yes, I've criticized Eifert staying healthy, but that was in regards to re-signing him, not about cutting him during his rookie contract.

I guess here's my ultimate stance. John Ross still counts just over $10 mill against the cap the next two years whether he's cut or not. At this point, his stock is so low that there's not really any value in trading him. If he doesn't blossom by the end of his rookie deal, then there's no reason to re-sign him and the Bengals can move on. And with next year's crop of WRs in the draft, it wouldn't surprise me to see the Bengals go with a WR on Day 1 or Day 2 if Ross doesn't blossom by the end of this season.

Yup. I wouldn't consider cutting him until he goes out there and pulls up lame again and has another year like the last 2. If i have to bite the bullet on that last year, pass the Frank's hot sauce. 

Cutting Ross doesn't make sense, but at the same time the guy has earned his "not even playing or having any impact until otherwise shown" reputation.

SEriously, despite ZT saying he's the one keeping Ross out and Ross will play vs Seattle, how surprised would you be if prior to the game we find out Ross has a tight this-n-that and is inactive. How floored would you be?

(08-20-2019, 02:23 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yup. I wouldn't consider cutting him until he goes out there and pulls up lame again and has another year like the last 2. If i have to bite the bullet on that last year, pass the Frank's hot sauce. 

Makes sense and would be understandable if he can't get on field or be a good WR in 2019. My only comment is big difference for Ross in year one versus year 2 so I would say if he had a year like year 1 time to cut bait without question (unless he lands or IR early, then may need to see him in TC one more time prior to making a decision).

(08-20-2019, 02:29 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Makes sense and would be understandable if he can't get on field or be a good WR in 2019. My only comment is big difference for Ross in year one versus year 2 so I would say if he had a year like year 1 time to cut bait without question (unless he lands or IR early, then may need to see him in TC one more time prior to making a decision).

It kind of depends on what the other guys can do. If someone--Core, Tate, Willis--step up and put up numbers...time to cut Ross if he can't do the same. 

(08-20-2019, 02:29 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Cutting Ross doesn't make sense, but at the same time the guy has earned his "not even playing or having any impact until otherwise shown" reputation.

SEriously, despite ZT saying he's the one keeping Ross out and Ross will play vs Seattle, how surprised would you be if prior to the game we find out Ross has a tight this-n-that and is inactive.  How floored would you be?

Why would you question ZT?

Anyone could be hurt so it would not surprise if Glenn is not back from a concussion. People heal from different things at different rates and more importantly we have no idea the severity, I am trusting ZT's words which tells me he thinks based on medical experts Ross could play in games, but he is thinking why risk it.

That is my read anyway.

(08-20-2019, 02:29 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Makes sense and would be understandable if he can't get on field or be a good WR in 2019. My only comment is big difference for Ross in year one versus year 2 so I would say if he had a year like year 1 time to cut bait without question (unless he lands or IR early, then may need to see him in TC one more time prior to making a decision).

I can't imagine it being as bad as year 1 (how many NFL players are THAT bad, anyways?) but things are really shaping up for an excuse-filled season and nothing has changed YET.  Yet, being the key word.  When good news about Ross comes in I will change my expectations but so far it's been....

1.  new coach and system yay for Ross!
2.  Ross isn't picking things up
3.  Ross is no-big deal injured
4.  Ok, maybe it's a big deal since he can't practice
5.  Ross will totally be ready for week 1

So what is next?  Everything is fine?  Or Ross is dealing with lingering issues and hasn't grasped the system because he missed the entire pre-season?  Best case scenario the guy is going to have to get his first experience with the new system during meaningful game time and while some players don't need to practice to hit the ground running, Ross seems to be the exact opposite.

OH, and if he doesn't break out this year he will in 2020 and if he doesn't in 2020 then we are going to let him go to the Steelers/Patriots and they're gonna make us pay.  The narrative is playing itself out, so Ross has to break this chain himself before I believe.

(08-20-2019, 02:35 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Why would you question ZT?

He's an NFL head coach...he says stuff that is more PR based than fact based.  AJ Green's injury went from not a big deal to missing multiple games.  Also, ZT talks up Bobby Hart...maybe he's nuts?

Listen, I'm glad ZT is here and I'm aware we could be in for a rough go, but I'm on his side. I just realize he's got to be the mouthpiece for ownership and he has to act like stuff that might be bad isn't going to be bad. The guy has been doing almost constant damage-control since he arrived here and that's standard rot for a rookie taking a high-ranking position with a troubled organization rather than staying an underling within a better organization.

(08-20-2019, 02:35 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Why would you question ZT?

Anyone could be hurt so it would not surprise if Glenn is not back from a concussion. People heal from different things at different rates and more importantly we have no idea the severity, I am trusting ZT's words which tells me he thinks based on medical experts Ross could play in games, but he is thinking why risk it.

That is my read anyway.

He is the guy that said Williams was 'dinged up' and then he was out for the year. Coachspeak.

ZT also said something a while back like Ross would be out a week or two. It's been much longer than that now. Coachspeak.

(08-20-2019, 02:46 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: He is the guy that said Williams was 'dinged up' and then he was out for the year. Coachspeak.

ZT also said something a while back like Ross would be out a week or two. It's been much longer than that now. Coachspeak.

Yeah, I didn't even think of the Williams thing.  This is par for the course...look at the Colts, again they are going from "Luck will be fine" down a path eerily similar to the one they took in 2017 when he went from "gonna be ready for week 1" to "he's out for the whole year...we're as shocked as you are!"

(08-20-2019, 02:46 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: He is the guy that said Williams was 'dinged up' and then he was out for the year. Coachspeak.

https://bengalswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/11/jonah-williams-injury-zac-taylor-wont-speculate/

During the media session, Taylor said Williams suffered a setback and “got dinged up” last week, according to the team’s website. But he refused to speculate on what the issue might be until the offensive tackle gets diagnosed by doctors.




Coach says something and fan tries to spin it to make coach look like liar.

Haterspeak.

(08-20-2019, 02:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: https://bengalswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/11/jonah-williams-injury-zac-taylor-wont-speculate/

During the media session, Taylor said Williams suffered a setback and “got dinged up” last week, according to the team’s website. But he refused to speculate on what the issue might be until the offensive tackle gets diagnosed by doctors.




Coach says something and fan tries to spin it to make coach look like liar.

Haterspeak.

I'm not saying he's a liar, I'm saying he's a mouthpiece for the organization and they want to keep the consumers in the dark about stuff.  It's sort of like how tobacco companies had to be forced to tell people smoking was bad for them...or something.  I mean, it says MAY be harmful on there, so smoke up!

(08-20-2019, 02:46 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: ZT also said something a while back like Ross would be out a week or two. It's been much longer than that now. Coachspeak.

ZT never said that.  I believe you are just making stuff up again.

Everything I can find Zac says he is "day-to-day" and that they are "not going to rush him back".  All along ZT has said is is very important to have Ross back by opening day and it looks like that is exactly what is going to happen.

(08-20-2019, 02:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not saying he's a liar, I'm saying he's a mouthpiece for the organization and they want to keep the consumers in the dark about stuff. 

Except the Bengals never kept the fans in the dark about anything.  Taylor honestly did not know how long Williams would be out and as soon as they found they told everyone.

That is like the exact OPPOSIT of what the tobacco companies did.  They intentionally lied until courts forced them to unseal documents.

There is plenty of REAL stuff to criticize the Bengals over.  I don't know why some people feel compelled to just make stuff up like this.

(08-20-2019, 02:46 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: He is the guy that said Williams was 'dinged up' and then he was out for the year. Coachspeak.

ZT also said something a while back like Ross would be out a week or two. It's been much longer than that now. Coachspeak.

No, coach Taylor said day to day with Ross. As for Jonah, why should we be privy to his medical conditions before the coach knows the full extent? No coach is going to give out a medical diagnosis without conferring with doctors first. 

(08-20-2019, 02:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not saying he's a liar, I'm saying he's a mouthpiece for the organization and they want to keep the consumers in the dark about stuff.  It's sort of like how tobacco companies had to be forced to tell people smoking was bad for them...or something.  I mean, it says MAY be harmful on there, so smoke up!

So he should feed us misinformation, because he isn't a doctor? That makes total sense......

(08-20-2019, 03:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: ZT never said that.  I believe you are just making stuff up again.

Everything I can find Zac says he is "day-to-day" and that they are "not going to rush him back".  All along ZT has said is is very important to have Ross back by opening day and it looks like that is exactly what is going to happen.

You may be right, but as I said I sincerely doubt anyone will be floored if Ross doesn't suit up in Seattle. 

(08-20-2019, 03:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except the Bengals never kept the fans in the dark about anything.  Taylor honestly did not know how long Williams would be out and as soon as they found they told everyone.

That is like the exact OPPOSIT of what the tobacco companies did.  They intentionally lied until courts forced them to unseal documents.

There is plenty of REAL stuff to criticize the Bengals over.  I don't know why some people feel compelled to just make stuff up like this.

Ehh, I'd ask Corey Dillion how much Mike Brown wants the truth to be known...but hey, new dey and all that.  I'm on ZT's side by admitting he's in a tough spot, that's all.

(08-20-2019, 03:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote: You may be right, but as I said I sincerely doubt anyone will be floored if Ross doesn't suit up in Seattle. 

No one will be floored because we have all seen it happen before.

The problem seems to be that many fans completely forget all the injured players that return when they are expected.  For some reason they only remember the ones who did not fully recover on time.  So they act like EVERY Bengal that ever got injured did not return on time.

Or else when the player does return on time the team is accused of "rushing" the return and using the player before he is fully healed.

(08-20-2019, 03:21 PM)sandwedge Wrote: So he should feed us misinformation, because he isn't a doctor? That makes total sense......

My point is more that you can't take what he says as truth because he doesn't know and/or he isn't supposed to tell the media/fans what he does know.  My issue is that people are using what ZT has said to indicate that Ross will be good to go for week 1 and I'm saying he's also indicated Williams and Green would be less injured than they ended up being.

So, no he shouldn't feed us misinformation, but people shouldn't give him a pass for not knowing how injured players are when he says something positive and they want to believe it.

(08-20-2019, 03:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No one will be floored because we have all seen it happen before.

The problem seems to be that many fans completely forget all the injured players that return when they are expected.  For some reason they only remember the ones who did not fully recover on time.  So they act like EVERY Bengal that ever got injured did not return on time.

Or else when the player does return on time the team is accused of "rushing" the return and using the player before he is fully healed.

Ok fair enough...ZT was wrong about Williams and Green (which is understandable) so I'm going to assume he's wrong about Ross until he's right about Ross.  Is that fair?

(08-20-2019, 03:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ok fair enough...ZT was wrong about Williams and Green (which is understandable) so I'm going to assume he's wrong about Ross until he's right about Ross.  Is that fair?

ZT was never wrong about Williams.

And even though he was wrong about Green he has been right about a bunch of other players who had minor injuries but are back at practice now.

So, no, it does not seem fair to judge every decision based on one time he was wrong and ignore all the times he was right.  Seems like you are trying too hard to be negative.

(08-20-2019, 04:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: ZT was never wrong about Williams.

And even though he was wrong about Green he has been right about a bunch of other players who had minor injuries but are back at practice now.

So, no, it does not seem fair to judge every decision based on one time he was wrong and ignore all the times he was right.  Seems like you are trying too hard to be negative.

I'm not saying ZT is ever wrong so much as he's "not right" so let me take your point and rephrase it.  ZT was NOT RIGHT about the severity of Williams and Green (because he isn't a doctor AND AND AND he's supposed to keep spirits high), so I wouldn't be surprised if he is NOT RIGHT about Ross.

This is more about me being negative about Ross.  ZT is a rookie HC trying to spin things positive while their #9 pick does nothing and guys who won't make the team get valuable reps.