It seems to me that there's just something missing on this team.

I know it's easy to say we need to upgrade this position player or need another pitcher but I mean beyond that. The next thing to point the finger at is the Mgr. And I agree, I believe Bell has at a minimum helped them to lose some games this season with his over management. But I mean beyond that. FSV got me to thinking about this with his taking division games personal thread.

Is it lack of leadership ? Like a lot of things sports I think the leadership thing gets overblown, to a degree, in general.

Is it just a lack of maintained intensity ? Like FSV says are they taking it personal ? Are they staying focused and somewhat angry about it ?

Is it to much playing, not taking it seriously enough ? MLB clubhouse's are notoriously the fun house. All kinds of jokesters and pranksters. And to a degree that's needed, but it can easily become to much. You gotta know when it's enough.

Or in another direction is it lacking in the fundamentals ? Not being able to lay down a bunt ? Bad base running, we've seen a good bit of this for sure.

Not being aggressive enough, which goes back to management. Not enough hitting and running, not enough steals, delayed steals, not enough turning guys lose 3-0, squeeze plays, etc.

A MLB season is a grind for sure, 162 games all the travel, I'm sure it's easy to lose focus. I can't pin it down to 15 words or less but it just seems to me something's missing. They just can't stay focused or maintain that edge for very long.

Luck is always a big factor in baseball, sometimes it's a hit and the next day it's not. But it's more than just bad or good luck.

Thoughts ?

I think managers take too much blame for losses, but the Reds make a ton of baserunning errors and none of them can bunt for shit. Some players are just knuckleheads that will do stupid stuff that the manager can not control, but when it seems like all the players are making the same mistakes I start to look at the manager.

In game decisions are usually criticized with the benefit of 20 20 hindsight. You never see a fan posting about the times he yelled at his TV over one of Bell's moves but it ended up working.

So if I am critical of Bell it is more over the lack of discipline than bad in-game moves.

Player wise we need some help in the bullpen. First half of the season I think we had the best pen in the league, but it has not held up well.

And although I have been one of Votto's biggest supporters we have to get more offense from first base.

(08-19-2019, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think managers take too much blame for losses, but the Reds make a ton of baserunning errors and none of them can bunt for shit.  Some players are just knuckleheads that will do stupid stuff that the manager can not control, but when it seems like all the players are making the same mistakes I start to look at the manager.

In game decisions are usually criticized with the benefit of 20 20 hindsight.  You never see a fan posting about the times he yelled at his TV over one of Bell's moves but it ended up working.

So if I am critical of Bell it is more over the lack of discipline than bad in-game moves.

Player wise we need some help in the bullpen.  First half of the season I think we had the best pen in the league, but it has not held up well.

And although I have been one of Votto's biggest supporters we have to get more offense from first base.

I agree Fred

I think deep down at it's core this team is lacking in leadership and management. I'm not saying there's some big dark secret I'm about to expose. But through the lack of discipline, lack of focus, lack of fundamentals they just can't close the gap with the better teams.

I mean if you're the Yankees, or the Red Sox, or the Dodgers you can just go buy a new team. The Reds and several other of the smaller market teams can't do this. They have to maintain that edge and do the little things well.

What's the answer ? I don't know

And I agree with you on Votto. Don't know the answer there either but they can't get to the top with such little production from 1st base.

This team just can't get on a roll.
One six game win streak, followed by a four game losing streak
One four game winning streak directly after they lost eight straight
Five three game winning streaks

One eight game losing streak
Four four game losing streaks
Two three game losing streaks

(08-19-2019, 06:22 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: This team just can't get on a roll.
One six game win streak, followed by a four game losing streak
One four game winning streak directly after they lost eight straight
Five three game winning streaks

One eight game losing streak
Four four game losing streaks
Two three game losing streaks

They've been very frustrating to say the least. Close yet so far away.

There's ups and downs in every teams baseball season, more often than not, no matter how good they are, I get it. But the inability to win day games, the one run losses, like you say just can't get on a roll. It seems to me they lose focus, pull off several bonehead base running gaffes, errors, and on and on. They just can't close the gap !

I really think that because of Votto’s contract that the Reds are just outgunned on the position players side. Take the top 5 position players of both teams in any series and I’m guessing that the Reds are on the short end. There are borderline question marks at every position except 3B and CF(when healthy). A couple of these guys could develop into more than question marks but you did say 2019. Young, inexperienced guys can often lack consistency. The manager pulled starters early all year in games that they were on their game. The bullpen pitched decent early but burnt out fast. Wood and Bauer haven’t pitched much yet but neither have been impressive. The Reds have to spend enough money and distribute it wisely while working around an anchor contract that takes up 1/5 of the teams payroll and yields very little in results. This will be a major issue for 4 more years. They need to luck into a few affordable and talented guys or they will never be much more than a .500 team. A good manager should also be an asset and nepotism rarely leads to excellence. We can hope but the odds aren’t on the Reds side.

(08-19-2019, 06:35 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I really think that because of Votto’s contract that the Reds are just outgunned on the position players side. Take the top 5 position players of both teams in any series and I’m guessing that the Reds are on the short end.  There are borderline question marks at every position except 3B and CF(when healthy). A couple of these guys could develop into more than question marks but you did say 2019. Young, inexperienced guys can often lack consistency. The manager pulled starters early all year in games that they were on their game. The bullpen pitched decent early but burnt out fast. Wood and Bauer haven’t pitched much yet but neither have been impressive. The Reds have to spend enough money and distribute it wisely while working around an anchor contract that takes up 1/5 of the teams payroll and yields very little in results. This will be a major issue for 4 more years. They need to luck into a few affordable and talented guys or they will never be much more than a .500 team. A good manager should also be an asset and nepotism rarely leads to excellence. We can hope but the odds aren’t on the Reds side.

Yep

The windows for small market teams open and close fairly quickly. I believe the window is starting to open now. I think if the Reds hope to challenge next season one of two things have to happen. 

JV returns to like 2016 form, 90 RBI's 25 HR's or they somehow find a way to trade him or whatever.

Benching Votto for the rest of the season may make him drop that "no trade" clause in his contract.

Votto is one problem. I like him but he isn't nearly worth what he is being paid for a few years now

(08-19-2019, 09:56 PM)Kingslayer Wrote: Votto is one problem.  I like him but he isn't nearly worth what he is being paid for a few years now

There's a part of me that agrees with others and would like to see JV retire a Red, ride off into the sunset. He's been a very solid 25 HR 90 RBI guy, on and on.

But there's a bigger part of me that wants to see this team strike at the fairly decent opportunity they have to get back in the hunt over next couple seasons.

And I don't think they can with Votto being an everyday 1B.

(08-19-2019, 07:33 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep

The windows for small market teams open and close fairly quickly. I believe the window is starting to open now. I think if the Reds hope to challenge next season one of two things have to happen. 

JV returns to like 2016 form, 90 RBI's 25 HR's or they somehow find a way to trade him or whatever.

The only way to trade Votto is to attack his pride and platoon him. He’s been such a great Red that he probably deserves all of next year before you do that. If he has a 3rd generic year in a row, his value will probably only be like 3-5 million per year to a team and they won’t send anything back.

(08-19-2019, 08:09 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Benching Votto for the rest of the season may make him drop that "no trade" clause in his contract.

Yep. He knows that he’s a borderline Hall Of Famer and wants those AB’s. It’s probably a matter of both class and guts. Does he deserve another year or does that dump truck of money that he’s already been paid cancel out the deserve part? His contract is probably already lost money but I just don’t think that the Reds should eat 6 straight years of production at first base. It’s been two, I can’t see more than three.

(08-19-2019, 09:56 PM)Kingslayer Wrote: Votto is one problem. I like him but he isn't nearly worth what he is being paid for a few years now

I can get that he’s not hitting homeruns or knocking in runs but he needs to hit way better than .260 and he needs to stop looking at strike 3, even if some calls are borderline. He hurt the team this year. He needs to bounce back soon, if it’s possible. The bad thing is his numbers declined this much with this juiced baseball. I do like Votto, I just like the Reds more!

(08-19-2019, 10:33 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I can get that he’s not hitting homeruns or knocking in runs but he needs to hit way better than .260 and he needs to stop looking at strike 3, even if some calls are borderline. He hurt the team this year. He needs to bounce back soon, if it’s possible. The bad thing is his numbers declined this much with this juiced baseball. I do like Votto, I just like the Reds more!

Votto would be ok if his 30+ HR's days are over. But you need RBI production from him/1B. If he only hit 15-20 HR's but still had 80+ RBI's it wouldn't be that bad.

Like you say stop looking at strike 3, hit a damn sac fly every once in awhile, go up there aggressive at the plate with runners on base down 3 runs late in the game instead of looking for walks.

(08-20-2019, 07:19 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Like you say stop looking at strike 3, hit a damn sac fly every once in awhile, go up there aggressive at the plate with runners on base down 3 runs late in the game instead of looking for walks.

The fact that almost every Votto defender cannot see this is maddening.

(08-20-2019, 07:19 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Votto would be ok if his 30+ HR's days are over. But you need RBI production from him/1B. If he only hit 15-20 HR's but still had 80+ RBI's it wouldn't be that bad.

Like you say stop looking at strike 3, hit a damn sac fly every once in awhile, go up there aggressive at the plate with runners on base down 3 runs late in the game instead of looking for walks.

I just don’t get his passive mindset with guys on base. He is either lacking confidence or looking for walks. He seems to think that his OBP is more important than trying to drive in runs. It is to his HOF Resume, coincidence?

(08-20-2019, 10:03 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: The fact that almost every Votto defender cannot see this is maddening.

They see it, they just feel that his past seasons give him a pass for the present and future failures. I can buy into the present but not too far into the future.

New Freaking 3rd base coach, and remake the bullpen. They need a hitter controllable for Votto's eventual replacement.

(08-21-2019, 12:11 AM)Circleville Guy Wrote: He seems to think that his OBP is more important than trying to drive in runs. It is to his HOF Resume, coincidence?

He does not just want to walk.  He wants to wait for a good pitch to hit.  It is not jut his OB%.  OB% doesn't get anyone into the Hall of Fame.  Votto has a shot because he has a career .300 batting average and .500 slugging percentage.  And he has those numbers because he waited for good pitches to hit.

But this year he is taking good pitches, and he is not squaring up on the ones that he does swing at.  He is a mess.

(08-21-2019, 09:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: He does not just want to walk.  He wants to wait for a good pitch to hit.  It is not jut his OB%.  OBP doesn't get anyone into the Hall of Fame.  Votto has a shot because he has a career .300 batting average and .500 slugging percentage.  And he has those numbers because he waited for good pitches to hit.

But this year he is taking good pitches, and he is not squaring up on the ones that he does swing at.  He is a mess.

Yes, his HOF chances are because of percentages and not totals such as hits, HR’s or RBI. There’s nothing wrong with being patient or having a good eye. He’s been too picky this year though and it’s cost him. There was a time when he would at least guard the plate with 2 strikes. He would foul of the borderline pitches until the pitcher made a mistake. The refs have been bad this year too but never give the refs that option on borderline pitches. I’d really like to see Votto rebound next year, it would suck to watch him decline even more.