(08-26-2019, 04:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote:  I disagree.

In 2010 Andre Caldwell was an experienced starter, but Marvin played rookie Jordan Shipley in front of him.

And I am sure I can find plenty of other examples.  Many of the complaints people have about Marvin just are not true.

You realize Jessie Bates was the first rookie to start on defense since Rey Maualuga? That's nine years.

(08-25-2019, 04:52 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: I do not understand.  Hopkins sucks.

I believe he is deficient athletically, but has the intelligence to absorb the offense and make all the right calls.  I can't help but wonder if that isn't some of what has moved Price to the bench.  Are they disappointed with Price's ability to grasp the offense and all the correct protections?  Because straight up blocking, it seems Price is superior, but then I would see him completely do the wrong assignment and look back like:  OOPS!  

(08-26-2019, 08:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: that really doesn't support a lot of the narrative going on around here. I hope Price breaks into the starting lineup but I hope it's at RG. 

Lapham, who as a former offensive linemen I give a nod as an experienced NFL guy, said that Hopkins body (long arms) and his football IQ makes him a better center than a guard...he said that last year.  Maybe Price will ultimately go on to have a long career as a guard.  He is better at straight up mashing guys instead of what he has been asked to do as a center.  He was a very highly rated guard after his junior year at OSU, but moved to Center to help his team.  

Regardless, I will echo the sentiment of many that I am thrilled to see Willis get a shot and that ZT is making decisions that he believes best fits his scheme.  I am also very excited for Michael Jordan.  He was a MUCH better guard than center at OSU and right now looks like the steal of this draft...since Willis was undrafted.  

(08-27-2019, 05:34 AM)Wyche Wrote: You realize Jessie Bates was the first rookie to start on defense since Rey Maualuga? That's nine years.

And what did Marv focus on the most....defense....and what has sucked since we lost Zimmer?  Defense.  And what was Marv supposed to be known for?  Defense.  There is really no, uh, defending it....but I am sure Fred will dig up a stat of Marv starting as many rookies as Belichek, but the fact remains that Burfict was destined to sit until an injury forced him in the lineup...and he ended up being the best player on defense and it wasn't even close.  

(08-27-2019, 08:01 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I believe he is deficient athletically, but has the intelligence to absorb the offense and make all the right calls.  I can't help but wonder if that isn't some of what has moved Price to the bench.  Are they disappointed with Price's ability to grasp the offense and all the correct protections?  Because straight up blocking, it seems Price is superior, but then I would see him completely do the wrong assignment and look back like:  OOPS!  

Now that's an explanation I can understand.  Thanks.

The good thing is that Price doesn't have to be a Center anymore. Gives him more flexibility.

All I know, is that whoever is evaluating these O-linemen for the Draft needs to be gone. It’s been a damn train wreck.

(08-27-2019, 10:28 AM)Gamma Ray Tan Wrote: All I know, is that whoever is evaluating these O-linemen for the Draft needs to be gone. It’s been a damn train wreck.

Alexander basically got fired because of Og and Fisher, and I’m not convinced Price was Pollack’s first choice anyway.

Can we just have Brian Callahan beg his dad to help us draft our next OL?

(08-27-2019, 08:01 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I believe he is deficient athletically, but has the intelligence to absorb the offense and make all the right calls.  I can't help but wonder if that isn't some of what has moved Price to the bench.  Are they disappointed with Price's ability to grasp the offense and all the correct protections?  Because straight up blocking, it seems Price is superior, but then I would see him completely do the wrong assignment and look back like:  OOPS!  

I always thought Price had a great skill set to be the RG of the future. He's a very aggressive drive blocker with power. As much as we gave (and still give) Hart for his pass protection, he was decent as a run blocker last year, so he and Price could become a good tandem to create rushing lanes on the right side.

(08-26-2019, 04:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote:  I disagree.

In 2010 Andre Caldwell was an experienced starter, but Marvin played rookie Jordan Shipley in front of him.

And I am sure I can find plenty of other examples.  Many of the complaints people have about Marvin just are not true.

Willis is a UDFA starting game 1 in front of other experienced guys. Shipley was a 3rd round pick, playing in front of another guy (both further down the depth chart). 

But good job finding one example of a new guy playing in front of another experienced backup to sate your Marv love. 

(08-26-2019, 04:04 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: But, the examples are guys like Maualuga and Peko, but it's not like the Bengals had a better player on the bench. That's the thing. It's not like management went out and got a better starter who Marvin then refused to play.

Ross was a 1st Round pick that rode the Bench. It took Kirkpatrick what 3-4 years to start. Heck...he barely played the 1st couple years. Dennard took some time.

If anything, history shows that Marvin was hard on 1st Round picks early on.

Then guys like Bodine are cited as examples, but it's not like we had a better Center behind the 4th Round pick. Management painted him into a corner on Bodine by not upgrading.

It would be nice if you or Fred, or anyone could find one example of Marv starting a UDFA game 1 ahead of another player with experience. 

He had a shot with Burfict, but he was on the bench in game 1 and only came in game 2 because of injury. 

(08-26-2019, 11:46 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Suffice it to say, Marv would play guys (for a number of reasons) longer than he should have, based on their performance and, in turn, would keep a guy on the bench longer than he should have (again, for a number of reasons). 

It disingenuous to pigeonhole him and say he did one thing while not doing the other. 

It's hard to say for certain that he wouldn't have given MJ the start at OG, because Boling retired. It is pretty certain that he would not have started Willis, because Malone and Core have been here longer and they have more game experience. 

(08-26-2019, 07:00 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I've never fully understood the "Marvin doesn't play rookies" bit.

Billy Price
Andy Dalton
A.J. Green
Carlos Dunlap
Keith Rivers
Leon Hall
Tyler Eifert
Jordan Shipley
Tyler Boyd
Rey Maualuga
Joe Mixon
Jeremy Hill
Giovanni Bernard
Russell Bodine
Jermaine Gresham
Pat Sims
Odell Thurman
Chris Henry

There are many others but if the rookies were talented enough, they got playing time.

"Marv doesn't play rookies" is not true. 

My post above is. 

(08-27-2019, 05:34 AM)Wyche Wrote: You realize Jessie Bates was the first rookie to start on defense since Rey Maualuga? That's nine years.

Don't poo poo fred's hours of research to find a single example to negate a point. 

(08-27-2019, 08:19 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Lapham, who as a former offensive linemen I give a nod as an experienced NFL guy, said that Hopkins body (long arms) and his football IQ makes him a better center than a guard...he said that last year.  Maybe Price will ultimately go on to have a long career as a guard.  He is better at straight up mashing guys instead of what he has been asked to do as a center.  He was a very highly rated guard after his junior year at OSU, but moved to Center to help his team.  

Regardless, I will echo the sentiment of many that I am thrilled to see Willis get a shot and that ZT is making decisions that he believes best fits his scheme.  I am also very excited for Michael Jordan.  He was a MUCH better guard than center at OSU and right now looks like the steal of this draft...since Willis was undrafted.  

Price looked good next to Hopkins at LG during the 'skins game. 

But MJ is there right now...

(08-27-2019, 05:34 AM)Wyche Wrote: You realize Jessie Bates was the first rookie to start on defense since Rey Maualuga? That's nine years.

Yes.

And I assume that you realize that over the same period 9 rookies have started at least 10 games on offense.

So what is your point?

(08-27-2019, 08:24 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: And what did Marv focus on the most....defense....and what has sucked since we lost Zimmer?  Defense.

Yeah, right.  Finishing #2 in scoring defense really sucks.

Zimmer has been gone 5 years.  We have finished in the top half of the league in scoring defense 4 times and twice in the top 10.

(08-27-2019, 08:24 AM)SHRacerX Wrote:  the fact remains that Burfict was destined to sit until an injury forced him in the lineup.

Belichick played Bledsoe in front of Brady until an injury forced his hand.

(08-27-2019, 03:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, right.  Finishing #2 in scoring defense really sucks.

Zimmer has been gone 5 years.  We have finished in the top half of the league in scoring defense 4 times and twice in the top 10.

Over how many years was that?  Who was the DC?  So Marvin had an above average defense 4 times in how many years?  Please stop. 

(08-25-2019, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If the injury was an issue I don't think Price would the first guy off the bench at any interior position like Taylor indicated.

Not bashing Hopkins, but the improvement of Price was one of the big factors I was counting on to improve the O-line.  Hopkins may have outplayed Price last year, but he was not impressive at all.  And Hopkins has been in the league 4 years.  He is not going to suddenly improve dramatically this season.

Oh i don’t think it was injury related either. At first yeah the injury was a huge setback but Hopkins took full advantage of his playing time and earned the job. I hope Billy improves as he stays healthy and can move into a guard spot but as of now we are where we are

(08-27-2019, 03:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Zimmer has been gone 5 years.  

(08-27-2019, 04:17 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Over how many years was that?  

Five