(08-27-2019, 11:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Did you see Hopkins at Guard 2 years ago? He was terrible.

Last season, he was just a below average Center.

So - Yes Hopkins is better suited to Center than Guard. But, that doesn't mean he's a Good or even Average Center compared to other NFL starters.

And Price was a Bad Center last year. His PFF rating was basically the same as Ross. I'd be more excited if we had competition between 2 Good players.

I get the past performance argument. Though between the two options, i'd rather have 'guy looks improved at a position he played better at' (hopkins) to 'two below average guys battling for a spot' (hopkins/price last year). Keeping in mind that under the Marv rule last year, Price was the starter as long as he was healthy--unquestionably. 

Two weeks from now we will have a better handle on how much and if he's improved. 

(08-28-2019, 01:52 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I get the past performance argument. Though between the two options, i'd rather have 'guy looks improved at a position he played better at' (hopkins) to 'two below average guys battling for a spot' (hopkins/price last year). Keeping in mind that under the Marv rule last year, Price was the starter as long as he was healthy--unquestionably. 

Two weeks from now we will have a better handle on how much and if he's improved. 

Marvin also got criticized for playing limited veterans over younger players. Seems like this is a case of that.

We know what Hopkins can do as a starter and barring some miraculous improvement he is what he is.  Price however is younger and has the chance to develop into a solid NFL Center.

I just don't see us competing this year...and riding veterans doesn't seem like a solid strategy. Going with youth that can develop does.

I mean it's a great story when a UDFA beats your former 1st Round picks...but for us to win we need to get our 1st Round picks producing. Pretty hard to win without that.

Speaking of which, I read that Dennard may be on PUP possibly for 6 games.

(08-27-2019, 11:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Did you see Hopkins at Guard 2 years ago? He was terrible.

Last season, he was just a below average Center.

So - Yes Hopkins is better suited to Center than Guard. But, that doesn't mean he's a Good or even Average Center compared to other NFL starters.

And Price was a Bad Center last year. His PFF rating was basically the same as Ross. I'd be more excited if we had competition between 2 Good players.

Hopkins looked really good in preseason...

OR do you believe just because someone didn't play great 2 years ago theres no chance they ever improve...

(08-26-2019, 11:27 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not trying to rag on Tobin, but the guy is likely the most genius of guys who will work under Mike Brown.  When you apply for a job and the boss says "You're going to do this job with me and for me and I'm going to have the title and the salary" you realize the talent pool is going to shrink.

If ZT makes a habit of casting aside the Brown/Tobin picks there is going to likely be some sort of shakeup down the line.

It is unfair to judge Tobin given the limited resources he has to work with. The guy has to scout with one eye not two and I think overall our draft success rate is good given the scouting staff size. Problem with that is - Mikey sees some of the picks are good so he assumes we can consistently have good drafts even with half staff. 

(08-28-2019, 10:35 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: It is unfair to judge Tobin given the limited resources he has to work with. The guy has to scout with one eye not two and I think overall our draft success rate is good given the scouting staff size. Problem with that is - Mikey sees some of the picks are good so he assumes we can consistently have good drafts even with half staff. 

Oh, believe me I give anyone here what I call the "Mike Brown Asterisk" when it comes to evaluation. 

(08-28-2019, 09:25 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Marvin also got criticized for playing limited veterans over younger players. Seems like this is a case of that.

We know what Hopkins can do as a starter and barring some miraculous improvement he is what he is.  Price however is younger and has the chance to develop into a solid NFL Center.

I just don't see us competing this year...and riding veterans doesn't seem like a solid strategy. Going with youth that can develop does.

I mean it's a great story when a UDFA beats your former 1st Round picks...but for us to win we need to get our 1st Round picks producing. Pretty hard to win without that.

Speaking of which, I read that Dennard may be on PUP possibly for 6 games.

It's a different offense and a different blocking scheme, so we really don't know what we have with Hopkins or any of the other players from last year.

Hopkins is also in a contract year and guys outplay their normal standard all the time in contract years to better position themselves for UFA.

If I'm Zac and Turner and my starting LG retired and my starting LT got hurt in OTA's, I would be doing everything to not get my starting QB killed.  Trey was PFF's top rated pass blocking C through the preseason.  I also have to make an evaluation on if Andy is my franchise QB or not.  Trotting him out there with lesser players that need experience isn't fair to him.

It's also tough to sell the players on competition and everyone getting a fair opportunity when the guys see a better player on the bench for a high draft pick.

Everyone starts the year 0-0 and every year teams surprise.  Saying we're not a contender before anyone has played any games that count isn't a good reason to start a guy who's been outplayed.

(08-28-2019, 11:52 AM)Whatever Wrote: It's a different offense and a different blocking scheme, so we really don't know what we have with Hopkins or any of the other players from last year.

Hopkins is also in a contract year and guys outplay their normal standard all the time in contract years to better position themselves for UFA.

If I'm Zac and Turner and my starting LG retired and my starting LT got hurt in OTA's, I would be doing everything to not get my starting QB killed.  Trey was PFF's top rated pass blocking C through the preseason.  I also have to make an evaluation on if Andy is my franchise QB or not.  Trotting him out there with lesser players that need experience isn't fair to him.

It's also tough to sell the players on competition and everyone getting a fair opportunity when the guys see a better player on the bench for a high draft pick.

Everyone starts the year 0-0 and every year teams surprise.  Saying we're not a contender before anyone has played any games that count isn't a good reason to start a guy who's been outplayed.

It's not about being fair to players, it's about winning games. The team has to play the best players it has at positions to have the best chance to win. Nothing is equal really. It's a team thing.

Every year every team has new players from the draft who need experience. Which position that is varies from year to year. Generally, we expect high picks to contribute immediately and they should. When a high pick takes years to develop they hurt the team as the team could have selected a player who could contribute right away, even if at a different position.

In the end, the team has to win and that is really the best job security any of these guys have, including the coaches.

 

(08-28-2019, 01:52 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I get the past performance argument. Though between the two options, i'd rather have 'guy looks improved at a position he played better at' (hopkins) to 'two below average guys battling for a spot' (hopkins/price last year). Keeping in mind that under the Marv rule last year, Price was the starter as long as he was healthy--unquestionably. 

Two weeks from now we will have a better handle on how much and if he's improved. 

It's a delicate mix between developing young guys and winning now. But, yes I can't wait to see the season start to see what we really have.

I just read Ravens have had a UDFA make their roster the last 15 years and ESPN is predicting this year being 16.

I knew Ozzie was a great GM, but I think that is impressive on the GM's part and also I guess Harborough also could care less where a player is drafted.

(08-28-2019, 01:09 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I just read Ravens have had a UDFA make their roster the last 15 years and ESPN is predicting this year being 16.

I knew Ozzie was a great GM, but I think that is impressive on the GM's part and also I guess Harborough also could care less where a player is drafted.

It all depends upon the situation.  I realize we're into the idea of ZT playing the best guys and not the highest picked guys, but we all rightly scoffed when Hobsin was crowing about how lucky the Bengals were to have not one, but TWO super high draft pick o-linemen riding the pine last year.  Talk about an embarrassment of riches!

At the moment it's too easy to wonder if this is less about stunningly good rookie late picks and more about bad drafting.  Was anyone declaring the 2009 Raiders to be defiantly bold when they benched #1 overall pick, Jamarcus Russell, so they could start #200 or so overall pick Bruce Gradkowski?

(08-28-2019, 01:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It all depends upon the situation.  I realize we're into the idea of ZT playing the best guys and not the highest picked guys, but we all rightly scoffed when Hobsin was crowing about how lucky the Bengals were to have not one, but TWO super high draft pick o-linemen riding the pine last year.  Talk about an embarrassment of riches!

At the moment it's too easy to wonder if this is less about stunningly good rookie late picks and more about bad drafting.  Was anyone declaring the 2009 Raiders to be defiantly bold when they benched #1 overall pick, Jamarcus Russell, so they could start #200 or so overall pick Bruce Gradkowski?

Indeed. The path to being a good team is hitting on 1st Round picks. Let's look at ours:

Jonah Williams - Hasn't played. MISS to this point atleast...but it's early and I expect him to be good.
Price - MISS to this point atleast.
Ross - MISS to this point.
Jackson - Quality to Good starter. HIT
Ced - Miss
Dennard - PUSH. Hasn't really had a lot of int's and is more of a Nickle CB. Took a few years to adjust to the NFL.
Eifert - HIT - The last 1st Round Pro-Bowl player we drafted. I'm probably being generous here calling him a hit as his stats aren't pretty.
Kirkpatrick - HIT - Although took a few years to earn PT.
Green - HIT.
Gresham - PUSH.
Andre Smith - HIT
Rivers - MISS
Hall - HIT
Joseph - HIT

With that being said, I'm still crossing my fingers that ZT is crazy bold enough to start Bob Dolegalaga over Dalton and Finley. Let's see some REAL commitment to the NEW DEY!

(08-28-2019, 01:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: With that being said, I'm still crossing my fingers that ZT is crazy bold enough to start Bob Dolegalaga over Dalton and Finley.  Let's see some REAL commitment to the NEW DEY!

Well I say Finley has earned the backup spot... So Play Dolegalaga  All PS game 4....

(08-28-2019, 01:44 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Well I say Finley has earned the backup spot... So Play Dolegalaga  All PS game 4....

Right, then when Dolegala throws for 7 TDs we make him the starter.  

(08-27-2019, 11:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Did you see Hopkins at Guard 2 years ago? He was terrible.

Last season, he was just a below average Center.

So - Yes Hopkins is better suited to Center than Guard. But, that doesn't mean he's a Good or even Average Center compared to other NFL starters.

And Price was a Bad Center last year. His PFF rating was basically the same as Ross. I'd be more excited if we had competition between 2 Good players.

And Boyd was a below average WR in 2017 (his 2nd year in the league) good thing we didn't give him a chance in 2018.

(08-28-2019, 02:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And Boyd was a below average WR in 2017 (his 2nd year in the league) good thing we didn't give him a chance in 2018.

Why doesn't that apply to Price who was a 1st Round pick?

(08-28-2019, 02:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And Boyd was a below average WR in 2017 (his 2nd year in the league) good thing we didn't give him a chance in 2018.

Boyd was underperforming and had off the field issues...he clearly was getting the "draft status" treatment from Marvin who played him due to his 2nd round draft status when he could have given the undrafted and late-round guys the chance!

(08-28-2019, 01:47 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Right, then when Dolegala throws for 7 TDs we make him the starter.  

Yep starter on the Scout team

(08-28-2019, 03:12 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Why doesn't that apply to Price who was a 1st Round pick?

I believe 100% trey Hopkins > than 80% Price.....


Now if both were 100% it might be different.

(08-28-2019, 03:32 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: I believe 100% trey Hopkins > than 80% Price.....


Now if both were 100% it might be different.

How do we know that Price isn't 100%?

Has he never been 100% as a Bengal?