(08-30-2019, 02:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay then, completely ignore special teams play.  Just look at what Core and Tate have done in games and tell me why Tate is "more reliable" receiver than Core.

Here are their regular season numbers

Core NFL career... 30 rec...... 12.0 avg..... 50.8 catch percentage..... 6.1 yds per target
Tate NFL career...  4 rec.......  8.8 avg...... 33.3 catch percentage..... 2.9 yds per target

Here are their numbers from this years preseason

Core... 13 rec... 12.3 avg..... 68.4 catch percentage..... 8.4 yds per target
Tate...   8 rec...   8.5 avg..... 72.7 catch percentage..... 6.2 yds per target

People complain about how Marvin would keep players who did not produce on the field over those who did, but then they turn around and claim we should keep Tate just because he is tall.

Core sucks at contested catches, while Tate excels at them.  This creates the illusion that Tate is more reliable.  However, Core can get seperation and Tate can't, so people tend to forget the routine grabs Core makes and focus on Tate's highlight reel catches.  

(08-30-2019, 02:21 PM)Synric Wrote: ...but it's not about numbers its evaluating talent. Auden Tate has shown he has a huge catch radius and snags the ball out of the air.

Actually he has not shown that at all.  He had a pathetic 33.3% catch percentage last year.

(08-30-2019, 02:22 PM)Whatever Wrote: Core sucks at contested catches, while Tate excels at them.  This creates the illusion that Tate is more reliable.  However, Core can get seperation and Tate can't, so people tend to forget the routine grabs Core makes and focus on Tate's highlight reel catches.  

tate will have to be good at contested catches if he cant outrun anyone....


Both have value to this team and I expect both to make it....(depending on what TATe's injuring is)


Guys like Malone Bryant and the other UDFA's likely getting the ax tomorrow.


of course one thing to remember whoever the 7th guy is will possibly be moved to PS when aj returns anyways.

(08-30-2019, 02:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually he has not shown that at all.  He had a pathetic 33.3% catch percentage last year.

This pre season you yourself has shown he has a 72%. Also Tate had been playing with the 1s while Core was with the 2s.

(08-30-2019, 02:26 PM)Synric Wrote: This pre season you yourself has shown he has a 72%. Also Tate had been playing with the 1s while Core was with the 2s.

I actually don't care which one (if either) makes the roster.  I just don't understand how much love Tate has gotten since he arrived.

I understand when guys like Peerman get a lot of love for an 80 yard preseason td run.  Or when Core made that 50 yard catch in the regular season his rookie year.  But Tate has done nothing.

(08-30-2019, 11:50 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Not true. The "average" punt returner gets about 8 yards per punt return, on about 20 punt returns every year. There are usually about 5-10 punt return TDs for the entire year on all punt returns.

The "average" starting WR gets about 12 yards per reception, on about 70 catches a year with 5 TDs (per player). 

Per game, the contribution of a WR is much greater on offense than it is on special teams. 

As far as what the 7th wideout can offer to a team, on the field--probably not much. But as a rule, any WR can offer more, on a per play basis, on offense than they can on STs. So if you're choosing between two guys, take the guy that can offer more for the offense over a guy that can run fast and play the gunner position. If you can't find a couple guys on a 53 man roster that can run fast for that, you already have bigger problems. 

I'm not suggesting that the contribution of a WR is greater on Special Teams than on Offense.

I'm suggesting the contribution of WR7 is greater on Special Teams than on Offense. The Bengals WRs with the 6th and 7th most offensive snaps last year had 77 and 68 snaps respectively. Core had 189 on Special Teams - more than WR6 and WR7 combined.

By big play potential I'm talking 40+ yards.

Last year the Bengals with a terrible defense gave up 15 plays of 40+ yards in 855 snaps. That's 1 in 57. On Offense we had 4 plays of 40+ yards from 690 snaps. That's 1 in 173. That's two extreme example but the average will be somewhere between the two.

If we say an average team has 27 punt returns that gives us 864 snaps across the NFL. There were 22 punt returns of 40+ yards, which would be 1 in 39.

If we say an average of 30 kick-off returns over 32 teams that's 960 kick-off returns of which 42 were returned 40+ yards (not an ideal measure but the only one I've readily available), which would be 1 in 29.

In a tight game in the 4th quarter you want the better Special Teams player rather than the WR7 on your roster. They are the one more likely to be on the field and even if they both got on the field a Special Teams ace is more likely to make a play than a back-up WR.

(08-30-2019, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I actually don't care which one (if either) makes the roster.  I just don't understand how much love Tate has gotten since he arrived.

I understand when guys like Peerman get a lot of love for an 80 yard preseason td run.  Or when Core made that 50 yard catch in the regular season his rookie year.  But Tate has done nothing.

The love for Tate is actually more hate for Core stemming back to last season.
Core dropped critical passes in the 4th q. Of games. 
I think.they were on 4th down too. Do or Die situation 
Yet Marvin Lewis still allowed him to get reps in the offense after the drops 
Meanwhile Tate might get a target or 2 and he's banished to the bench 
Tate was a extremely raw physical speciman out of FSU.
He wasn't expected to all of a sudden light the league on fire.
Meanwhile as the season went into the last couple games and the Bengals clearly out of playoff contention .....
Marvin still gave Core more snaps than Tate.
For what reason ?
It didn't make any season 

Who had Westerman as a surprise cut?

(08-30-2019, 02:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Who had Westerman as a surprise cut?

I've got him as a cut rather than a surprise cut.

(08-30-2019, 02:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Who had Westerman as a surprise cut?

He was pretty firmly in place as their 3rd string LG... not really?

I know PFF loves the guy but that's like 3 straight seasons where he's failed to impress an offensive line coach.

(08-30-2019, 02:55 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Marvin still gave Core more snaps than Tate.
For what reason ?
It didn't make any season 

From last season

Contested catch rate
Core.... 28.6
Tate.... 16.7

True catch rate (based on catchable passes)
Core.... 68.4
Tate.... 44.4

Avg target distance
Core.... 14.9
Tate.... 11.3

Catch Radius (per playerprofile.com)
Core.... 9.99
Tate.... 9.81
*Tate is 2 inches taller, but Core's vertical was 6.5" better (37.5 to 31.0)

yds per target
Core.... 5.7
Tate.... 2.9

(08-30-2019, 02:26 PM)Synric Wrote: This pre season you yourself has shown he has a 72%. Also Tate had been playing with the 1s while Core was with the 2s.

Core started the first two preseason games, so he has also played with the 1's.  Most of the WR's have played with the 1's at some point.

Tate has a miserably low 8.5 ypc, 2nd worst among the WR's.  Catch % tends to go up on short routes.

(08-30-2019, 09:55 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Malone...
Driskel  although not a surprise at this point but if he was healthy he might have made it on STs
John Jerry might be a surpise cut.

I think it is safe to say Jerry is not a viable option at OT but I thought he did well as Guard.  

That's not saying much about Core considering he's played.more football than Tate.
Core recieved better coaching at Ole Miss.
How many FSU WRs have prospered at the NFL of late?
Tate was a 3 route guy at FSU.
They barely threw the ball at FSU when Tate was there.
Not to mention QB issues.
At this moment who has played better in the preseason
Tate or Core?

(08-30-2019, 10:39 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Also, is Jordan Willis safe?

If J-Willis gets cut I would be shocked.

(08-30-2019, 10:48 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I have yet to see anyone put up 1 surprise cut. Based on how players played in preseason and those not rookies I would be surprised if these guys make it who were mentioned:

Malone
Core (may be a trade for a 7th round pick as had good camp and is good ST player)
Jerry
Jefferson

To me a surprise cut is someone who most felt had the 53 roster made and then were cut:
Willis
Brown (who had good preseason)

I don't see one, unless someone like these 2 guys above

I thought Malone was going to have a break out year.  So Yes, If Malone is cut I would be surprised and somewhat disappointed.   I think Fans hate on Core because of those drop passes at critical moments.  

How much of a chance is there that we trade Billings? Josh Tupou looked pretty good out there and wonder if the staff will see Billings as expendable. I imagine they want to keep Brown as well.

(08-30-2019, 12:35 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: yeah I don't really like the LB we drafted this year either...  He might not make it.   And we are probly watching the waiver wire for LBers….

Davis has been a disappointment.  I thought he would have displayed something more because he is rather small and needed to prove himself NFL ready.  

(08-30-2019, 04:05 PM)Whatever Wrote: Core started the first two preseason games, so he has also played with the 1's.  Most of the WR's have played with the 1's at some point.

Tate has a miserably low 8.5 ypc, 2nd worst among the WR's.  Catch % tends to go up on short routes.

Bryant hasn't

The fact that Core is on the bubble is all you need
To know about him.