(08-30-2019, 02:52 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I'm not suggesting that the contribution of a WR is greater on Special Teams than on Offense.

I'm suggesting the contribution of WR7 is greater on Special Teams than on Offense. The Bengals WRs with the 6th and 7th most offensive snaps last year had 77 and 68 snaps respectively. Core had 189 on Special Teams - more than WR6 and WR7 combined.

By big play potential I'm talking 40+ yards.

Last year the Bengals with a terrible defense gave up 15 plays of 40+ yards in 855 snaps. That's 1 in 57. On Offense we had 4 plays of 40+ yards from 690 snaps. That's 1 in 173. That's two extreme example but the average will be somewhere between the two.

If we say an average team has 27 punt returns that gives us 864 snaps across the NFL. There were 22 punt returns of 40+ yards, which would be 1 in 39.

If we say an average of 30 kick-off returns over 32 teams that's 960 kick-off returns of which 42 were returned 40+ yards (not an ideal measure but the only one I've readily available), which would be 1 in 29.

In a tight game in the 4th quarter you want the better Special Teams player rather than the WR7 on your roster. They are the one more likely to be on the field and even if they both got on the field a Special Teams ace is more likely to make a play than a back-up WR.

I getcha, but let me ask you. If it came down to Core or Tate, who do you take?

Core is established on teams, though unspectacular. His tackles are middling to nothing but some people (i'm sure Bengals coaches too) value him for his speed as a gunner and i get that. If he gets down field and disrupts the return guy--slows him down--there's more of a chance of someone making the tackle for a nominal gain. I don't dispute any of this. 

My thing is, if Core and Tate are who the last spot is between, i'm taking Tate because he's a better WR. I'll sacrifice Core's contributions on teams and find someone else fast to take his spot. It's easier to replace speed than catchability. 

WRs get hurt. I want the best i can get top to bottom. Before a game starts, the last thing i'm worried about is being in the 4th quarter and having to punt. I want guys that can get the job done on offense and defense to end the game. 

Special teams is 1/3 of the game but it's an unequal 1/3. You're gonna get 65-85 snaps a game on both offense and defense. Teams will get maybe 5-10 snaps (punts and kickoffs).

P.S. Core's contribution to special teams is greater than his actual production. There are guys in the past who were tackling machines and they would need to be viewed in a different way.

And also he still couldnt take advantage of a injuried
Aj Green and move up the depth chart.

Fun Fact: Core was the starter at WR to open preseason. It was determined that Tate was more deserving when game 3 came around. 

Core has been solid, overall, but they didn't replace him simply because they got an itch. 

(08-30-2019, 04:06 PM)impactplaya Wrote: That's not saying much about Core considering  he's played.more football than Tate.
Core recieved better coaching at Ole Miss.
How many FSU WRs have prospered at the NFL of late?
Tate was a 3 route guy at FSU.
They barely threw the ball at FSU when Tate was there.
Not to mention QB issues.
At this moment who has played better in the preseason
Tate or Core?

Core outperformed Tate in the preseason.  More catches, more yards, better YPC, more 1st downs, better 1st down%, better YPT.  Tate has the edge in TD's and catch %.  Headed into the final preseason game, Core also had a higher catch %.  

(08-30-2019, 04:40 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Fun Fact: Core was the starter at WR to open preseason. It was determined that Tate was more deserving when game 3 came around. 

Core has been solid, overall, but they didn't replace him simply because they got an itch. 

That's going to chafe a few asses around here.  

(08-30-2019, 04:33 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I getcha, but let me ask you. If it came down to Core or Tate, who do you take?

Core is established on teams, though unspectacular. His tackles are middling to nothing but some people (i'm sure Bengals coaches too) value him for his speed as a gunner and i get that. If he gets down field and disrupts the return guy--slows him down--there's more of a chance of someone making the tackle for a nominal gain. I don't dispute any of this. 

My thing is, if Core and Tate are who the last spot is between, i'm taking Tate because he's a better WR. I'll sacrifice Core's contributions on teams and find someone else fast to take his spot. It's easier to replace speed than catchability. 

WRs get hurt. I want the best i can get top to bottom. Before a game starts, the last thing i'm worried about is being in the 4th quarter and having to punt. I want guys that can get the job done on offense and defense to end the game. 

Special teams is 1/3 of the game but it's an unequal 1/3. You're gonna get 65-85 snaps a game on both offense and defense. Teams will get maybe 5-10 snaps (punts and kickoffs).

P.S. Core's contribution to special teams is greater than his actual production. There are guys in the past who were tackling machines and they would need to be viewed in a different way.

I'm not defending Core so much as the concept of rostering Special Teams specialists. Tate's already on my roster (my first 6 are Green, Boyd, Ross, Willis, Erickson and Tate), it's just working out who will be 7th - it would have been Stanley Morgan but his injury situation is murky.

Special Teams is an unequal partner but it's still way more than 5-10 snaps a game. It's every time you kick-off a half, every time a team scores and restarts, every time a team punts - both receiving and kicking. In the 4th quarter I hope to be looking at the special teams receiving the ball after we force a punt and then defending the kick-off after we've scored! Any edge we can get in those phases I'm looking for.

(08-30-2019, 02:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You said Tate was "more reliable" that Core.  That is what I want you to explain.

Pretty sure I never explicitly said Tate is more reliable than Core, but said Core isn't considered to be reliable because we've all seen him make key mistakes in games.

Core has had 3 years to be considered a guy we can rely on when called upon, but the feeling that i get from just looking at Twitter and people on here is that Tate has given more of a reliable feeling in less time. Im sure you'll just chalk that up to people disliking Core because hes screwed up in actual games.

Also I think it should be noted that Damion Willis is starting over both of these guys... Damion Willis hasn't done anything of value on special teams.

(08-30-2019, 05:08 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Im sure you'll just chalk that up to people disliking Core because hes screwed up in actual games. 

Tate only caught 33% of his targets in actual games.

(08-30-2019, 05:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Tate only caught 33% of his targets in actual games.

Tate didnt drop a gimme pass that would have resulted in a first down against the Steelers though.

(08-30-2019, 04:40 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Fun Fact: Core was the starter at WR to open preseason. It was determined that Tate was more deserving when game 3 came around. 

Core has been solid, overall, but they didn't replace him simply because they got an itch. 

Billy Price also started preseason game 3.  So did Tony McRae.  I think you're reading a lot more into it than what's there.  They've repeatedly said that they want to see how everyone looks with the 1's and they've cycled numerous players in there with the 1's.  If game three was a traditional dress rehearsal, they wouldn't have pulled Dalton after the 1st quarter.

By your logic, Price would be the starting C, and he's not.  

Furthermore, it's not like Tate did much with the 1's before getting hurt.  He had a good outing against the backups in game 1, but really hasn't done much since.  Not only has Core put up better numbers, he's done it against better competition.

(08-30-2019, 05:08 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Pretty sure I never explicitly said Tate is more reliable than Core, but said Core isn't considered to be reliable because we've all seen him make key mistakes in games.

Core has had 3 years to be considered a guy we can rely on when called upon, but the feeling that i get from just looking at Twitter and people on here is that Tate has given more of a reliable feeling in less time. Im sure you'll just chalk that up to people disliking Core because hes screwed up in actual games.

Also I think it should be noted that Damion Willis is starting over both of these guys... Damion Willis hasn't done anything of value on special teams.

Starters usually don't have to play Special teams....   top 4 WRs likely wont... Unless they are like AB....   If willis falls out of the top 4 guys once AJ is back then he will have to play special teams to be active on game days.


But when talking about the very last spots at some positions the key is always special teams. as that's what they will mostly be doing.
(RBs, WRs, CBs, S's, LBs, TEs,)

(08-30-2019, 05:54 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Starters usually don't have to play Special teams....   top 4 WRs likely wont... Unless they are like AB....   If willis falls out of the top 4 guys once AJ is back then he will have to play special teams to be active on game days.


But when talking about the very last spots at some positions the key is always special teams.   as that's what they will mostly be doing.
(RBs, WRs, CBs, S's, LBs, TEs,)

Core and Erickson were the #4 and #5 and both played ST's the past few years.  Most teams dress 5, with the final two playing on ST's.

Willis will be interesting to watch.  If he can't take the #3 job from Ross, I think he's inactive on game days when AJ gets back if he doesn't show some ST's value.

(08-30-2019, 05:52 PM)Whatever Wrote: Billy Price also started preseason game 3.  So did Tony McRae.  I think you're reading a lot more into it than what's there.  They've repeatedly said that they want to see how everyone looks with the 1's and they've cycled numerous players in there with the 1's.  If game three was a traditional dress rehearsal, they wouldn't have pulled Dalton after the 1st quarter.

By your logic, Price would be the starting C, and he's not.  

Furthermore, it's not like Tate did much with the 1's before getting hurt.  He had a good outing against the backups in game 1, but really hasn't done much since.  Not only has Core put up better numbers, he's done it against better competition.

Comparing Cody Core's situation to Billy Price is an Apples to Oranges comparison.  The difference being that Price is battling a legit tissue injury in his foot.  What is Core's injury, again??

(08-30-2019, 01:15 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: This is exactly why this lying bullshit pisses me off. None one has ever said special teams aren't important, yet someone posts some bullshit and here are 4 examples of someone latching onto it, untrue as it is, reinforcing a point that was based on lies. 

I apologize, didn't mean to say you said ST's aren't important if that is the way it came across.

(08-30-2019, 06:24 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Comparing Cody Core's situation to Billy Price is an Apples to Oranges comparison.  The difference being that Price is battling a legit tissue injury in his foot.  What is Core's injury, again??

Price's injury has no bearing on my point.  Rfaulk is trying to say Tate starting the 3rd preseason game means the staff was down on Core and Tate had risen above him on the depth chart.  Hopkins starting over Price after Price started the 3rd preseason game shows there's no correlation.  

As far as Price's injury goes, I've had plantar fasciitis.  It never bothered me when I was lifting, walking, standing, etc.  When it hurt was after I was off my my feet for awhile.  It would hurt like a ***** in the morning but would loosen up after I hobbled around on it for 20 minutes or so.  His symptoms may be different, but as cautious as the staff has been with injuries all through TC and preseason, it kind of sounds like that's being used as an out for him being outplayed.  

(08-30-2019, 06:37 PM)Whatever Wrote: Price's injury has no bearing on my point.  Rfaulk is trying to say Tate starting the 3rd preseason game means the staff was down on Core and Tate had risen above him on the depth chart.  Hopkins starting over Price after Price started the 3rd preseason game shows there's no correlation.  

As far as Price's injury goes, I've had plantar fasciitis.  It never bothered me when I was lifting, walking, standing, etc.  When it hurt was after I was off my my feet for awhile.  It would hurt like a ***** in the morning but would loosen up after I hobbled around on it for 20 minutes or so.  His symptoms may be different, but as cautious as the staff has been with injuries all through TC and preseason, it kind of sounds like that's being used as an out for him being outplayed.  

So, you never tried driving 300+ guys off the ball with a sore foot?     

Lifting, walking, standing, etc. are all controlled movements, nothing like a physical athlete facing a similar one in a battle of wills.  Again, another Apples to Oranges comparison..

(08-30-2019, 06:37 PM)Whatever Wrote: Price's injury has no bearing on my point.  Rfaulk is trying to say Tate starting the 3rd preseason game means the staff was down on Core and Tate had risen above him on the depth chart.  Hopkins starting over Price after Price started the 3rd preseason game shows there's no correlation.  

As far as Price's injury goes, I've had plantar fasciitis.  It never bothered me when I was lifting, walking, standing, etc.  When it hurt was after I was off my my feet for awhile.  It would hurt like a ***** in the morning but would loosen up after I hobbled around on it for 20 minutes or so.  His symptoms may be different, but as cautious as the staff has been with injuries all through TC and preseason, it kind of sounds like that's being used as an out for him being outplayed.  

So, you never tried driving 300+ guys off the ball with a sore foot?     

Lifting, walking, standing, etc. are all controlled movements, nothing like a physical athlete facing a similar one in a battle of wills.  Again, another Apples to Oranges comparison..

(08-30-2019, 06:37 PM)Whatever Wrote: Price's injury has no bearing on my point.  Rfaulk is trying to say Tate starting the 3rd preseason game means the staff was down on Core and Tate had risen above him on the depth chart.  Hopkins starting over Price after Price started the 3rd preseason game shows there's no correlation.  

As far as Price's injury goes, I've had plantar fasciitis.  It never bothered me when I was lifting, walking, standing, etc.  When it hurt was after I was off my my feet for awhile.  It would hurt like a ***** in the morning but would loosen up after I hobbled around on it for 20 minutes or so.  His symptoms may be different, but as cautious as the staff has been with injuries all through TC and preseason, it kind of sounds like that's being used as an out for him being outplayed.  

So, you never tried driving 300+ guys off the ball with a sore foot?     

Lifting, walking, standing, etc. are all controlled movements, nothing like a physical athlete facing a similar one in a battle of wills.  Again, another Apples to Oranges comparison..

(08-30-2019, 06:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, you never tried driving 300+ guys off the ball with a sore foot?     

Lifting, walking, standing, etc. are all controlled movements, nothing like a physical athlete facing a similar one in a battle of wills.  Again, another Apples to Oranges comparison..

Plantar fasciitis is a partial tear of a tendon running around the bottom of the foot.  You get orthopedic insoles, do a couple of weeks of PT, and roll a frozen bottle of water along the bottom of your foot, and you're fine.  It isn't like the guy is coming back from a torn Achilles or something.  If he fully tore his plantar fascia, that would be different, but they sat him out of practice so his condition would heal and he wouldn't tear it completely.  Given the way they have treated injuries and the fact that there is a chance of a more severe injury if he continued, we can reasonably assume that he was given ample time for it to fully heal before he allowed to practice.

(08-30-2019, 07:28 PM)Whatever Wrote: Plantar fasciitis is a partial tear of a tendon running around the bottom of the foot.  You get orthopedic insoles, do a couple of weeks of PT, and roll a frozen bottle of water along the bottom of your foot, and you're fine.  It isn't like the guy is coming back from a torn Achilles or something.  If he fully tore his plantar fascia, that would be different, but they sat him out of practice so his condition would heal and he wouldn't tear it completely.  Given the way they have treated injuries and the fact that there is a chance of a more severe injury if he continued, we can reasonably assume that he was given ample time for it to fully heal before he allowed to practice.

Baloney..  I've dealt with plantar fasciitis, back when I played Semi-Pro ball, my wife currently deals with it intermittently.  For me, it just kind of went away.  For my wife, she has to go get painful cortisone injections into her heal. 

Every ailment affects each individual differently.  For you to just use your obviously mild case as an example, is pretty much blathering at best.  It's pretty obvious that you're not a medical professional, and likely just a part time gym rat at best.  So, please stop trying to minimize the severity of injuries to actual professional athletes.