(09-03-2019, 12:38 PM)Whatever Wrote: It's actually bottom 3 in revenue.  30th, to be exact.

There's a number of factors as to why.  Obviously, lack of on field success over the team's history is a big issue.  You had a down decade and the team never had a SB win to galvanize a generation of fans.  

Another big issue is competition.  Not only are they a small market team, but they are in the same state in the same conference as another NFL team. It's harder to grow the fanbase because they split airtime in a number of large in state tv markets.  They also have intense competition for merchandise dollars from Ohio State.  Most of their star players aren't that marketable, either.

Another reality is that while salaries are pretty much fixed across the board in the NFL, potential revenue is dictated by market.  No matter how good the Bengals are, they will never be able to charge the ticket, concession, souvenir, and parking prices that teams can charge in New York or LA.  Most people in the market just can't afford those prices.  

The NFL has revenue sharing, but there are still rich and poor teams. As an example, based on 2017 numbers the difference between the Cowboys with the most revenue and the Giants with the 3rd most revenue was more than the Bengals total revenue for the year.  The Bengals were $60 million short of league average.

We can argue that if he built a winner, revenue would increase, but it's a competitive industry where 31 other teams have the same goal.  Spending more doesn't necessarily mean the team will win more, and given playoff years where they couldn't fill PBS, winning more doesn't necessarily indicate a large upturn in income.  

When you field an uncompetitive product you feel market pressures from other regional products competing for dollars. Field a competitive product and the patrons will support it, and fans from afar that will travel to take in a game and buy merchandise. Mike manages the team and bare minimum expenditures. It’s the reason the brand sucks compared to its counterparts, and the product is not a winning one over Mike’s tenure. Eschewing the best/brightest front office personnel hires to employ your family generally does not result in a competitive large business. Apologists can explain away the lack of success and value, but it all lies at the feet of Mike.

(09-03-2019, 12:38 PM)Whatever Wrote: Another big issue is competition.  Not only are they a small market team, but they are in the same state in the same conference as another NFL team. It's harder to grow the fanbase because they split airtime in a number of large in state tv markets.  They also have intense competition for merchandise dollars from Ohio State.  Most of their star players aren't that marketable, either.

Even though it's been over 50 years, the Bengals were technically an expansion team. There are quite a few people between Cincinnati, Dayton, and Columbus that actually live closer to Cincinnati but root for the Browns because either the Bengals weren't around when they got into NFL or their parents/grandparents root(ed) for the Browns.

(09-04-2019, 02:12 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: When you field an uncompetitive product you feel market pressures from other regional products competing for dollars.  Field a competitive product and the patrons will support it, and fans from afar that will travel to take in a game and buy merchandise.  Mike manages the team and bare minimum expenditures.  It’s the reason the brand sucks compared to its counterparts, and the product is not a winning one over Mike’s tenure.  Eschewing the best/brightest front office personnel hires to employ your family generally does not result in a competitive large business.  Apologists can explain away the lack of success and value, but it all lies at the feet of Mike.

That's apparently some's definition of a successful businessman.

(09-03-2019, 07:30 PM)Whatever Wrote: The Steelers can easily build their brand based on a couple of factors.  They won 4 Super Bowls back in the '70's which bought them a generation of loyal fans.  When the steel industry collapsed, those fans spread around the country and created pockets of Steeler fans all over.  They also currently have a HoF QB, which makes marketing much easier, as well as numerous other marketable stars through the years.

Green Bay is a similar situation to Pittsburgh, but their fanbase is literally invested in the team due to their grandfathered in ownership structure.  Honestly, they are not that well run of an organization, but they've had back to back HoF QB's that have helped keep them competitive when they haven't had a bunch of surrounding talent.  The Packers stunk for a long time from the end of the Lombardi era until the time they got Favre. 

A huge factor in franchise valuation is also whether the team owns it's own stadium or not.  

Ahhhhh. The good ole days of Lynn Dickey, James Lofton and John Jefferson. As bad as they were around that time, the early to mid 80s they were average but they would throw the ball all day long. They were usually the go to players names we used when we were playing football in the yard. 

(09-04-2019, 11:47 AM)McC Wrote: It is the 30th most valuable franchise in the league.  And it's still worth 1.8 billion.  1.8 billion.  How much did he pay for it again?   All he had to do to get it was be born.  You telling me you wouldn't take that deal?

If it was me i would have invested in the team winning and then the value would at least be in the mid teams. If the league had 100 teams he would still be in the bottom 3 because he sucks at business. The last few franchises on the list just suck off the NFL teet, they are horrible at developing value. Mikey does the bare minimum and the value, although still very large, reflects that compared to other franchises. 

(09-04-2019, 12:22 PM)Whatever Wrote: That doesn't really make sense.  People mistakenly assume that Mikey inherited the Lion's share of the Bengals when in reality, he inherited 51%.  He's been buying the rest up over time.  He would basically have to double the value of the franchise to make the same money on a sale in your example, but why would he want to increase the franchise value and drive up the cost of the shares he's trying to buy on himself?  The smart business play is to consolidate ownership first, then reinvest to drive up the value.  

And since he bought up all the shares we have really seen him invest haven't we? LOL

The old Mikey is buying the shares cheap argument is very very old. I dont expect everyone to get how a business is valued but it is what i do for a living. 

Think of it this way - if Mikey sold out to a guy like Kraft who then hired the right people and built a decade of high level winning, what do you think the franchise would then be worth? Would it still be 30th?

(09-04-2019, 04:07 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: If it was me i would have invested in the team winning and then the value would at least be in the mid teams. If the league had 100 teams he would still be in the bottom 3 because he sucks at business. The last few franchises on the list just suck off the NFL teet, they are horrible at developing value. Mikey does the bare minimum and the value, although still very large, reflects that compared to other franchises. 

Okay, let me put it this way---even if he is a lousy businessman, and I'm not even saying he is, how many great businessmen have a business worth a whole lot less than 2 billion?  And he sure seems to always come out ahead in any business transaction.  I'm drawing a blank on the last time somebody bested him in a money deal.

The point is, it doesn't really matter what kind of businessman he is.

Now, you want to talk GM, that's a whole other discussion.

(09-04-2019, 02:12 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: When you field an uncompetitive product you feel market pressures from other regional products competing for dollars.  Field a competitive product and the patrons will support it, and fans from afar that will travel to take in a game and buy merchandise.  Mike manages the team and bare minimum expenditures.  It’s the reason the brand sucks compared to its counterparts, and the product is not a winning one over Mike’s tenure.  Eschewing the best/brightest front office personnel hires to employ your family generally does not result in a competitive large business.  Apologists can explain away the lack of success and value, but it all lies at the feet of Mike.

Regional business is a bad example.  In typical local/regional business competition, if I consistently produce a better product than my competition for similar or less cost and price my product less than my competition, I should outsell them considerably.  That's never been the case with the Bengals and Browns. The issue is that brand loyalty is huge in sports.  

Ohio State is a different animal because the produce tons of consumers with ingrained brand loyalty every year in the form of graduates.  Those graduates are a part of OSU in a way that they will never be a part of a pro team. I mean the Cooper era had a similar narrative to the Marvin era(couldn't beat Michigan or win bowl games vs couldn't beat Pittsburgh or win playoff games), but the stands were still full of fans decked out in new OSU gear.

Building a competitive product isn't proven to dramatically increase revenue in this case.  We've had playoff teams that don't sell out the stadium.  The customer base is essentially dug in until he wins a playoff game.  

(09-04-2019, 04:17 PM)McC Wrote: Okay, let me put it this way---even if he is a lousy businessman, and I'm not even saying he is, how many great businessmen have a business worth a whole lot less than 2 billion?  And he sure seems to always come out ahead in any business transaction.  I'm drawing a blank on the last time somebody bested him in a money deal. The point is, it doesn't really matter what kind of businessman he is. Now, you want to talk GM, that's a whole other discussion.

The NFL is an oligopoly so you can really only compare Mike Brown's business acumen to his peers within the NFL.  According to FORBES the Bengals' value is 30th out of 32 with the franchises worth less being the Detroit Lions and the Buffalo Bills.  Now, these 3 franchises are owned by two people who inherited the business and one guy who purchased the business in order to further a bit of an upstate NY monopoly on various sports.  It could be argued that the bottom-rung of value in the NFL is controlled by people who are less interested in football and more interested in making money (no sin there, just calling it what it is).


Additionally, the Bengals being worth less than multiple teams that have either moved once or more and/or expansion franchises could also be seen as a bit of a damning factor, as well.  But of course the Patriots are the flagship example of brand development as they were even more of a joke than the Bengals when Robert Kraft (a detestable, but self-made man...I think...I'm not looking it up now) bought them and increased their equity and his investment by actually providing a better and more marketable product.

So...at the bottom it's MIke Brown, another blue hair who inherited the team in Martha Ford, a guy who owned an NHL team first in Pegula, and above them are the new Houston Oilers and the new extra crappy Browns.  Not the most glorious company, I'd say.

(09-04-2019, 04:12 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: And since he bought up all the shares we have really seen him invest haven't we? LOL

The old Mikey is buying the shares cheap argument is very very old. I dont expect everyone to get how a business is valued but it is what i do for a living. 

Think of it this way - if Mikey sold out to a guy like Kraft who then hired the right people and built a decade of high level winning, what do you think the franchise would then be worth? Would it still be 30th?

I own a business. It started with a value of $300K in 2001, now valued in the millions (equity). MB's business adventure (Bengals) started in the millions, now in the billions. Any bank loves MB and loves a business like mine. 

Anyone can speculate and say what if, but the reality is if you can take a business and increase its value year over year 7 to 10%, you win. You can't be guaranteed anything in the stock market, strictly bods are fixed and low returns right now, interest rates are extremely low, so great return of 7 to 10%.

Hopefully since this is what you do for a living, you know all of this.

(09-04-2019, 04:28 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I own a business. It started with a value of $300K in 2001, now valued in the millions (equity). MB's business adventure (Bengals) started in the millions, now in the billions. Any bank loves MB and loves a business like mine. 

Anyone can speculate and say what if, but the reality is if you can take a business and increase its value year over year 7 to 10%, you win. You can't be guaranteed anything in the stock market, strictly bods are fixed and low returns right now, interest rates are extremely low, so great return of 7 to 10%.

Hopefully since this is what you do for a living, you know all of this.

Yes, but Mike Brown operates within a bubble of 32 businesses and I assume you do not.  I mean, which NFL franchise wouldn't a bank love?

(09-04-2019, 04:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yes, but Mike Brown operates within a bubble of 32 businesses and I assume you do not.  I mean, which NFL franchise wouldn't a bank love?

You miss the point. There are many who blow money, spend it like toilet paper. There are people who make $300K a year, yet have nothing to show for it because they were never taught, you only spend what you can afford.

I never went and looked for a $300K house to buy if I could only afford a $100K, yet many do and did and then go bankrupt.

MB negotiated a sweetheart of a business deal, that deal assured him a fast return on his investment. That is one small example of MB the great business man.

I never said he was a great GM, in fact I have said he stinks as a GM. But, that is a different conversation and nothing to do with this thread.

(09-04-2019, 04:41 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You miss the point. There are many who blow money, spend it like toilet paper. There are people who make $300K a year, yet have nothing to show for it because they were never taught, you only spend what you can afford.

I never went and looked for a $300K house to buy if I could only afford a $100K, yet many do and did and then go bankrupt.

MB negotiated a sweetheart of a business deal, that deal assured him a fast return on his investment. That is one small example of MB the great business man.

I never said he was a great GM, in fact I have said he stinks as a GM. But, that is a different conversation and nothing to do with this thread.

The point I'm making is that you can't lose money when you own an NFL team.  Hell, the Colts are owned by an actual drug addict and they're worth more than genius businessman Mike Brown's team is.  

(09-04-2019, 04:12 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: And since he bought up all the shares we have really seen him invest haven't we? LOL

The old Mikey is buying the shares cheap argument is very very old. I dont expect everyone to get how a business is valued but it is what i do for a living. 

Think of it this way - if Mikey sold out to a guy like Kraft who then hired the right people and built a decade of high level winning, what do you think the franchise would then be worth? Would it still be 30th?

If I was Mikey, I'd be saving for a retractable roof stadium because PBS is outdated, the home viewing experience is too good for people to freeze their nuts off, and I'm definitely not getting tax money for it.

I dunno, the Saints are only 28th. The Colts are 22nd.  Meanwhile, teams that have been mediocre for long periods like Cowboys, Skins, Rams, Bears, and 9'ers are up top.  Your stadium ownership situation and your market are your main factors.  Winning heps, but it's not a too consideration when it comes to franchise value.

(09-04-2019, 05:22 PM)Whatever Wrote: If I was Mikey, I'd be saving for a retractable roof stadium because PBS is outdated, the home viewing experience is too good for people to freeze their nuts off, and I'm definitely not getting tax money for it.

I dunno, the Saints are only 28th. The Colts are 22nd.  Meanwhile, teams that have been mediocre for long periods like Cowboys, Skins, Rams, Bears, and 9'ers are up top.  Your stadium ownership situation and your market are your main factors.  Winning heps, but it's not a too consideration when it comes to franchise value.

I never understood why we do not have a retractable roof in the first place when PBS was built.

Build it and city can use PBS for a lot of entertainment events and be in use 365 days a year. The city gets more tax revenue as businesses get more business downtown during these events and city could manage the non Bengals events and make money for their investment.
MB could also add 5 to10 million a year if he allowed naming rights to PBS, 5 to10 million a year equates to an additional 25 to 50 million a year in equity. Why would a cheap guy not sell the naming rights if he was indeed cheap?

(09-04-2019, 05:29 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Why would a cheap guy not sell the naming rights if he was indeed cheap?

I think there is a difference between cheap and money-grubbing.  Mike Brown cuts corners and runs a franchise in a manner that is behind the eight ball compared to his peers, but he will forgo extra money in order to keep his father's name on the stadium.  They aren't one in the same, but I'll admit this move on his part does show some character on his part.

Speaking of cheap, when I went to Cincy for the first and only time in 2014 to attend a Bengals game the crap-o motel I stayed at had a printout of landmarks to visit and it had CINERGY FIELD on it. Lordy!


I'm trying to think of a way to compare the PBS naming to my own life. Let's see....I"m cheap, I buy generic stuff, I don't like to spend money etc. but if someone offered me X amount of dollars (something comparable to my equity vs Mike Brown's) to put an advertisement for Doritos on my father's grave I'd probably say no....probably.

(09-04-2019, 05:40 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I think there is a difference between cheap and money-grubbing.  Mike Brown cuts corners and runs a franchise in a manner that is behind the eight ball compared to his peers, but he will forgo extra money in order to keep his father's name on the stadium.  They aren't one in the same, but I'll admit this move on his part does show some character on his part.

Speaking of cheap, when I went to Cincy for the first and only time in 2014 to attend a Bengals game the crap-o motel I stayed at had a printout of landmarks to visit and it had CINERGY FIELD on it.  Lordy!


I'm trying to think of a way to compare the PBS naming to my own life.  Let's see....I"m cheap, I buy generic stuff, I don't like to spend money etc. but if someone offered me X amount of dollars (something comparable to my equity vs Mike Brown's) to put an advertisement for Doritos on my father's grave I'd probably say no....probably.

Why is the stadium negotiated by MB with Hamilton County and the city Paul's grave?

Paul's grave may or may not exist, for all we know he may have been cremated, but if not and  has a grave, no one offered money.

(09-04-2019, 05:59 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Why is the stadium negotiated by MB with Hamilton County and the city Paul's grave?

Paul's grave may or may not exist, for all we know he may have been cremated, but if not and  has a grave, no one offered money.

I had to get creative since my father didn't leave me a business that requires a stadium.  It's a moot point though because my father was cremated and I took a small payment to have an advertisement for 3d Doritos placed on his faux gold box thingy.

This thread has taken a strange turn...

(09-04-2019, 06:07 PM)Nately120 Wrote:
I had to get creative since my father didn't leave me a business that requires a stadium.  It's a moot point though because my father was cremated and I took a small payment to have an advertisement for 3d Doritos placed on his faux gold box thingy.

There you go again peddling false information. He bought the business from PB and many other investors.

He was not given a business.