(09-16-2019, 11:07 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Yet we do know.  That is why it is brought up.  If Dalton is slow, Brady can only be described as stationary.  If forced off his spot and his rhythm is interrupted, Brady doesn't win.  He doesn't produce.

This is the QB that is considered and called the G.O.A.T. and he needs blocking that Dalton hasn't had since 2015.

That tired what if has been thrown around for years. It’s not just this years OL. It was how would Brady look under Marvin, or how would Brady look with this OC or that OC. It’s weak.

Would Brady have 6 rings in Cincinnati? Absolutely not. Would Brady have multiple playoff wins in Cincinnati? Absolutely yes.

(09-16-2019, 11:13 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Ya, the pain at that moment for me was visceral as I did not see Kirkpatrick as the pick.  It was one of those Bengal moments where an average fun says 'not again'.  Zeitler was pretty good though I think they were similar in talent but DeCastro goes to pro-bowl as Steelers are view differently compared to Bengals.  

here is why being a Bengal fan is painful at times...just read this article.  

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/4/27/2979495/paul-alexander-bengals-had-decastro-and-zeitler-ranked-equally

Just looking at the title makes me sad.

I didn't hate the Zeitler pick, but he wasn't on my radar until after we picked him.  DeCastro was though.  He was considered a technician and fundamentally sound at the position.  Glenn as the 2nd pick would have been very sweet.

I honestly think that Paul Alexander was more like "We don't need that guy, with my coaching we can take anyone!"  Hence why we let Zeitler go and kept Kirkpatrick. 

Hell, if Zeitler and Glenn were the picks I would have been OK with it.  I will say that if Zeitler was better than DeCastro, then why did we let him go in FA?  You don't let those guys leave.  Just a head scratcher.

(09-16-2019, 11:17 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That tired what if has been thrown around for years. It’s not just this years OL. It was how would Brady look under Marvin, or how would Brady look with this OC or that OC. It’s weak.

Would Brady have 6 rings in Cincinnati? Absolutely not. Would Brady have multiple playoff wins in Cincinnati? Absolutely yes.

Brady under Marvin with some of the OLines that we have had with some of the players that we have would be a playoff win.

However Brady at QB with our OLines from 2016 on to present does not. 

Brady is the ultimate game manager.  He does exactly what Bill tells him to do.  I don't doubt that he puts in his 2 cents from time to time and Bill takes what he says into consideration, but his success has been and always will be strong OLine play.  When was the last time the Patriots were lacking at protecting the QB?

(09-16-2019, 11:42 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Brady under Marvin with some of the OLines that we have had with some of the players that we have would be a playoff win.

However Brady at QB with our OLines from 2016 on to present does not. 

Brady is the ultimate game manager.  He does exactly what Bill tells him to do.  I don't doubt that he puts in his 2 cents from time to time and Bill takes what he says into consideration, but his success has been and always will be strong OLine play.  When was the last time the Patriots were lacking at protecting the QB?

2017?

https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2017/10/06/five-games-into-the-season-tom-brady-has-been-sacked-more-times-than-he-was-all-last-year

Dalton was sacked 46 times in 2012, which is the most of his career.

Brady was sacked 40 times in 2013, which is the *2nd most of his career.

They both made the playoffs those years. I guess poor OL play can be overcome...

(09-17-2019, 12:00 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: 2017?

https://www.boston.com/sports/new-england-patriots/2017/10/06/five-games-into-the-season-tom-brady-has-been-sacked-more-times-than-he-was-all-last-year

Nah, 35 sacks is about average, plus sacks are not a true testament of OLine play.  Pressures, run blocking, push, dominance.  The games where the Line struggled (which there were some) Brady struggled.  Can't say if he lost all the games, but he didn't win all of them that is for sure.

The OLine of the Patriots have been their strength since Bill got there.  I think the scheme helps the OLine play

(09-17-2019, 12:19 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Dalton was sacked 46 times in 2012, which is the most of his career.

Brady was sacked 40 times in 2013, which is the *2nd most of his career.

They both made the playoffs those years. I guess poor OL play can be overcome...

Sacks don't tell the whole story though. You know that right?

If not, read my post to your question about 2017.

(09-17-2019, 12:23 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Nah, 35 sacks is about average, plus sacks are not a true testament of OLine play.  Pressures, run blocking, push, dominance.  The games where the Line struggled (which there were some) Brady struggled.  Can't say if he lost all the games, but he didn't win all of them that is for sure.

The OLine of the Patriots have been their strength since Bill got there.  I think the scheme helps the OLine play

You’re moving the goal posts now. You didn’t ask about “push” or “run blocking” etc. You asked when the last time the Pats were lacking at protecting their QB. The answer is 2 years ago. They only gave up 4 less sacks than we did that year.

Also, how come we go on ad nauseam about Dalton’s quick release, but the one QB in the league with a even quicker release doesn’t get credit for avoiding sacks and pressure? It’s all his OL?

My thoughts are the same as they were when Jonah went down, Boling retired and Glenn got a concussion:

This team will have some wild swings in good and bad this year. If the line can give Dalton some protection, this offense will score points. When they can't, they will be terrible.

That being said, you can't win when your O-line sucks. Our O-line will suck this year.

(09-17-2019, 12:43 AM)Hammerstripes Wrote: My thoughts are the same as they were when Jonah went down, Boling retired and Glenn got a concussion:

This team will have some wild swings in good and bad this year. If the line can give Dalton some protection, this offense will score points. When they can't, they will be terrible.

That being said, you can't win when your O-line sucks. Our O-line will suck this year.

It’s not just the OL. The defense was atrocious against SF. You won’t win many games giving up 500+ total yds. To no name RB’s at that.

Nicomo is right if we had Brady instead of Dalton we would have been better off. Not sure why anyone is arguing it.

(09-17-2019, 12:24 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Sacks don't tell the whole story though. You know that right?

If not, read my post to your question about 2017.

All you've done is give the same old, tired excuses about how "if" this and "if" that and every single one of them--and there's a lot--is necessary in order to put Dalton anywhere near the top 10 QBs in this league. The excuses, or "reasons" as people like to call them, are all imaginary and a perfect crutch to prop him up when the reality is, he's had 4 tries to win a a playoff game and he's played well in 2 quarters of one game. 

Instead of posting those same damn old, tired excuses, you should take a good look at the sheer number of them and finally come to the realization that he's nothing more than an average QB that can win some games on Sunday afternoon but has never shown even a flash of being able to win a game in the playoffs or even make the throws necessary to win a game late on a Sunday or Monday night against a playoff quality team. 

Every single passing play in every single football game gives a QB several opportunities for success and every choice that player makes on any given play will give him a different level of success, depending on his decision. The sum of those decisions will determine two things; the raw stats he produces and the outcome of the game--tight win, comfortable win, big win, tight loss, comfortable loss, big loss. If you were able to put each and every QB in the exact same circumstance, running the exact same play against the exact same defense you are going to have different outcomes. All the excuses in the world cannot cover that fact. 

Andy Dalton will typically make a good decision, make a good play most of the time and in a 16 game season, end up with a few great throws that usually net him stats that keep him somewhere from the middle to lower middle of the pack, with a couple exceptions when his skill players are healthy and he's given more time to throw and he's able to produce above average stats. 

Guys like Mahommes, Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Ryan have physical skills that allow them to make throws that Dalton simply can't make. Other guys like Wilson, Prescott, Watson and, yes Jackson, have physical skills that allow them to extend plays until receivers can get open. Some of those guys have both. Guys like Brady, Brees and Rivers are less mobile but have the brains and touch to tear you apart all game long. That is the only group that Dalton has a chance to be in, except he doesn't have the touch or ability to move in the pocket that would allow him to be as successful as them. 

Getting back to my earlier statement about different QBs being in the exact same circumstances and the decisions they make; Dalton will always do just enough to keep him as a viable starting QB in the NFL because he's a smart guy with some physical abilitites, but on any one of those plays, a different QB will make a different decision which could completely effect the outcome of the play. For example, on a 3rd and 5, Dalton may read a safety blitz and choose to throw a slant to the opposite side to get a first down. A guy like Ben may read the exact same thing and decide to hold on to the ball a second longer and then throw to the WR who now has single coverage because he has the arm and accuracy to make that throw, along with the confidence. Dalton made a good read, which resulted in a first down, but later in the drive the Bengals punted. Ben got 7. That is one example of how on 1 play, two QBs make different decisions that directly effect the outcome of a game. Multiply those single plays times a game, a season and a career and it's why some guys win playoff games, super bowls and go to the HoF.  

On a Monday night, Mahommes ran out of the pocket on 3rd down, away from Von freaking Miller long enough to throw a left handed pass that resulted in a first down. Do you think Dalton could do that? Short answer; no. 


I can't believe i typed all this to someone who is only concerned with wasting mutiple posts about how "if" this and "if" that, Dalton would do much better or how "if" this or "if" that, Mahommes wouldn't be as good. It's all complete bullshit, short sighted and doesn't do anything but speculate a bunch of things that a QB (Dalton) has had 8 seasons and 2 games to actually do, but hasn't up to this point--so if you choose to stay on your line of thinking and throw a bunch more BS and excuses my way, instead of looking at the, clearly, valid reasons why one QB is better than another under the exact same circumstances, i can guarantee i will completely ignore your reply, because i'm sick and tired of hearing 8 years and 2 games worth of "ifs". The sheer number of them are absolutely, positively ridiculous. 

(09-17-2019, 12:43 AM)Hammerstripes Wrote: My thoughts are the same as they were when Jonah went down, Boling retired and Glenn got a concussion:

This team will have some wild swings in good and bad this year.  If the line can give Dalton some protection, this offense will score points.  When they can't, they will be terrible.

That being said, you can't win when your O-line sucks.  Our O-line will suck this year.

They'll score points in the first half... 

(09-17-2019, 12:29 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You’re moving the goal posts now. You didn’t ask about “push” or “run blocking” etc. You asked when the last time the Pats were lacking at protecting their QB. The answer is 2 years ago. They only gave up 4 less sacks than we did that year.

No, I am not moving the goal post.  You are trying to equate sacks with "bad" OLine play.

My point was when did the Pats have a bad OLine.  You are doing what is called "stat" manipulation to get the point you want.  You don't care that Brady wouldn't be Brady in Cincinnati, you just want everyone to agree with you that Dalton is the problem. 

You agree that we have other issues, but you are so target fixated on Dalton that you think that if we were to replace him, we would be good.

That is just plain false.  Even if the best QB were on our team right NOW.  We would have a losing season.  If he stayed on our team for 5 years, and we did not fix the OLine, we would have losing seasons.  The only reason you think a QB is the best is because of the perception around the league.  It wouldn't be long before you would claim that the best QB is the problem and that we would need to move on.  With Brady you would probably say that he is "too old" and doesn't have "it" anymore.

So instead of accusing me of "moving goal post", how about acknowledge that what I said about poor OLine play, which is something that we have is not something NE has, based off of 1 part of OLine play.  Sacks are NOT the only aspect of OLine play. How hard is that to grasp?

(09-17-2019, 04:21 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: All you've done is give the same old, tired excuses about how "if" this and "if" that and every single one of them--and there's a lot--is necessary in order to put Dalton anywhere near the top 10 QBs in this league. The excuses, or "reasons" as people like to call them, are all imaginary and a perfect crutch to prop him up when the reality is, he's had 4 tries to win a a playoff game and he's played well in 2 quarters of one game. 

Instead of posting those same damn old, tired excuses, you should take a good look at the sheer number of them and finally come to the realization that he's nothing more than an average QB that can win some games on Sunday afternoon but has never shown even a flash of being able to win a game in the playoffs or even make the throws necessary to win a game late on a Sunday or Monday night against a playoff quality team. 

Every single passing play in every single football game gives a QB several opportunities for success and every choice that player makes on any given play will give him a different level of success, depending on his decision. The sum of those decisions will determine two things; the raw stats he produces and the outcome of the game--tight win, comfortable win, big win, tight loss, comfortable loss, big loss. If you were able to put each and every QB in the exact same circumstance, running the exact same play against the exact same defense you are going to have different outcomes. All the excuses in the world cannot cover that fact. 

Andy Dalton will typically make a good decision, make a good play most of the time and in a 16 game season, end up with a few great throws that usually net him stats that keep him somewhere from the middle to lower middle of the pack, with a couple exceptions when his skill players are healthy and he's given more time to throw and he's able to produce above average stats. 

Guys like Mahommes, Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Ryan have physical skills that allow them to make throws that Dalton simply can't make. Other guys like Wilson, Prescott, Watson and, yes Jackson, have physical skills that allow them to extend plays until receivers can get open. Some of those guys have both. Guys like Brady, Brees and Rivers are less mobile but have the brains and touch to tear you apart all game long. That is the only group that Dalton has a chance to be in, except he doesn't have the touch or ability to move in the pocket that would allow him to be as successful as them. 

Getting back to my earlier statement about different QBs being in the exact same circumstances and the decisions they make; Dalton will always do just enough to keep him as a viable starting QB in the NFL because he's a smart guy with some physical abilitites, but on any one of those plays, a different QB will make a different decision which could completely effect the outcome of the play. For example, on a 3rd and 5, Dalton may read a safety blitz and choose to throw a slant to the opposite side to get a first down. A guy like Ben may read the exact same thing and decide to hold on to the ball a second longer and then throw to the WR who now has single coverage because he has the arm and accuracy to make that throw, along with the confidence. Dalton made a good read, which resulted in a first down, but later in the drive the Bengals punted. Ben got 7. That is one example of how on 1 play, two QBs make different decisions that directly effect the outcome of a game. Multiply those single plays times a game, a season and a career and it's why some guys win playoff games, super bowls and go to the HoF.  

On a Monday night, Mahommes ran out of the pocket on 3rd down, away from Von freaking Miller long enough to throw a left handed pass that resulted in a first down. Do you think Dalton could do that? Short answer; no. 


I can't believe i typed all this to someone who is only concerned with wasting mutiple posts about how "if" this and "if" that, Dalton would do much better or how "if" this or "if" that, Mahommes wouldn't be as good. It's all complete bullshit, short sighted and doesn't do anything but speculate a bunch of things that a QB (Dalton) has had 8 seasons and 2 games to actually do, but hasn't up to this point--so if you choose to stay on your line of thinking and throw a bunch more BS and excuses my way, instead of looking at the, clearly, valid reasons why one QB is better than another under the exact same circumstances, i can guarantee i will completely ignore your reply, because i'm sick and tired of hearing 8 years and 2 games worth of "ifs". The sheer number of them are absolutely, positively ridiculous. 

All you have done is give the same faulty reasons as and excuses as to why a QB is good.

"Mahomes threw left handed!"  So what?  He got lucky.  It turned out well, and made a highlight reel.  However there are always 2 sides.  You don't like IFs, but that is the reality.  What happened was good, but what also happened was bad.  Why?  INTS, Fumbles, baiting.  Mahomes has not met any real adversity.  His receivers catch most passes thrown to them.  Defenses are still a little unsure on what they can do, both because of the rules (don't want to rough the passer) and because they are trying to cover people while playing contain.

It is easy to cheer for Mahomes, but you are wrong to call him "better" when he hasn't been in any situation so far that is close to Dalton.

Ignore me.  As a matter a fact, I should ignore you.  I prefer people with football knowledge and can understand nuance, not someone that regurgitates SC talking points.  The worst is that when pundits say things that you don't like, it is "they're idiots" but then you freaking spout them to back you up.

(09-17-2019, 02:05 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Nicomo is right if we had Brady instead of Dalton we would have been better off. Not sure why anyone is arguing it.

Simply, because it is a false statement.  Brady is a system QB that he fits in with and will do everything he can to stay in.

(09-17-2019, 09:07 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Simply, because it is a false statement.  Brady is a system QB that he fits in with and will do everything he can to stay in.

The G.O.A.T. is just a "system QB" ? I believe you are Fred incognito. Otherwise you wouldn't make such stupid remarks. 

(09-17-2019, 09:35 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The G.O.A.T. is just a "system QB" ? I believe you are Fred incognito. Otherwise you wouldn't make such stupid remarks. 

Yes.  Brady is the type of QB that Bill was work with to make NE a SB team.  Brady bought in and knows that he won't have the same success he would if he were in Arizona, Miami, Cincinnati and for a time Cleveland.  Especially early in his career.

Here is a quick list of "special" QBs that after 1 or 2 years in the league everyone thought they would be SB winners.

Carson Palmer
Donovan McNabb
Donte Culpepper
Michael Vick
Colin Kaepernick
RGIII
Sam Bradford
of course Dan Marino


Here is a quick list of guys that were not  considered anything special after 1 or 2 years in but have won SBs.

Tom Brady
Drew Brees (at the time he was considered injury prone and not short)
Nick Foles
Eli Manning
Joe Flacco
Trent Dilfer
Kurt Warner

QBs that are considered special after 1 or 2 years that have won SBs.

Ben R.
Russell Wilson
Aaron Rodgers

John Elway is the big time outlier.  He was consider special, but he didn't win a SB until very late when people were saying that he should retire.

(09-17-2019, 09:03 AM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: * a bunch of useless words*

*watches it angle towards the excuses*


Yeah. You're dismissed.

P.S. You are an absolute (insert noun here, which i chose to delete, which indicates a person is not very smart) if you're going to throw what ifs at me (which are hypothetical) and completely ignore actual facts and game play--results that show why one QB is better than the other, in the real world --and then try and say i don't have knowledge or understand nuance, when i showed that i actually do in my previous post.

I obviously have more football knowledge than you could ever hope to have. The only thing you have are excuses and conjecture. 

Bye Felicia