Thoughts after a few weeks...

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 05:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I do give him somewhat of a pass for the Colts game. We were decimated.

As to who should replace him? Depends where we pick. If we get a top 5 pick, and there’s a top QB prospect (that Taylor likes) I say go for it. I’m getting a little tired of wasting 1st rounders on scrubs and injured players anyway.

Now this is something that we can agree on. 

If Taylor likes the guy and is all in on him, I would be OK with moving on from Dalton. 

I remember many people being excited about Price and I know I was happy with the J. Williams pick (hate that he got hurt).

If we are picking really low and Taylor is truly confident in the guy I can't be against a QB pick.

I will only disagree with going QB because he has hype surrounding him, especially if we neglect the OLine to get a Baker Mayfield QB.

I would rather forgo QB to build up the OLine with high quality players to give Dalton the ability to do his taxes as he drops back to pass.  If Dalton can't produce behind an OLine that is giving him clean pockets and jersey's then I will join you with looking for the next guy at QB.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-16-2019, 07:17 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Now this is something that we can agree on. 

If Taylor likes the guy and is all in on him, I would be OK with moving on from Dalton. 

I remember many people being excited about Price and I know I was happy with the J. Williams pick (hate that he got hurt).

If we are picking really low and Taylor is truly confident in the guy I can't be against a QB pick.

I will only disagree with going QB because he has hype surrounding him, especially if we neglect the OLine to get a Baker Mayfield QB.

I would rather forgo QB to build up the OLine with high quality players to give Dalton the ability to do his taxes as he drops back to pass.  If Dalton can't produce behind an OLine that is giving him clean pockets and jersey's then I will join you with looking for the next guy at QB.

Many people on this board would be happy if we drafted 7 OSU players every year. Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

I think Bengals management knows this and drafts OSU players to get fans at games. That and they're close to scout. Probably on TV for free in Cincy a lot.

[coachmcneil71]

The Bill's can't throw it like the Niner's can. Ts, the defense should be able to play better against the run. And wts, I still expect Singleton to have a good day, along with Gore. Cincy's tackling was horrible against SF. If they can't clean that up, they'll be in trouble all season.
With the LB corps that is in place, I don't see it getting much better this season. Like I mentioned in another thread, I expect a lot of LBs in camp next year.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 06:45 PM)thillan Wrote: I don’t think that Dalton throw matches, he just threw it up. Mahomes was a laser from far away.

But it was a good play, which I hope I’m showing in this convo.. he’s GOOD on best days, but not great. Those terms are relative to everyone though.

Good clip on Daltons throw while getting hit, I’m out right now but I can take a look.

Looked very similar to me.  Having to avoid the sack and throwing on the move, to hit a TD.  I won't say they are exact, but they have many of the same elements.

I again, can't agree with you about him being only good.  At his best, with the OLine blocking and healthy playmakers, Dalton has been great.  He gets the ball out quick, makes quick decisions and follows his coaches advice.  I would actually like to see ZT implement some runs with Dalton.  He had a play where he just flat out broke CJ Mosley's ankles.  I know that Marvin wasn't a fan of letting QBs run due to the possibility of them getting hurt, which he does have a point.  Cam is starting to slow down more and more every year ( will admit that Cam has lasted longer than I thought).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zHpScZwTL4

[THE PISTONS]

(09-16-2019, 07:25 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: The Bill's can't throw it like the Niner's can. Ts, the defense should be able to play better against the run. And wts, I still expect Singleton to have a good day, along with Gore. Cincy's tackling was horrible against SF. If they can't clean that up, they'll be in trouble all season.
With the LB corps that is in place, I don't see it getting much better this season. Like I mentioned in another thread, I expect a lot of LBs in camp next year.

Matt Breida isn't exactly a HOF back. Gore will probably have 200 yards even at his advanced age. 

[Catmandude123]

(09-16-2019, 02:10 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: What has Mahomes won again? 

Playoff game !!!!

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 07:21 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Many people on this board would be happy if we drafted 7 OSU players every year. Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

I think Bengals management knows this and drafts OSU players to get fans at games. That and they're close to scout. Probably on TV for free in Cincy a lot.

I don't know about on this board but I do know that many draft profile sites had 3 OCs as 1st round / 2nd round picks.  Ragnow, Price and Daniels.

If you wanted a technician and pure center, Daniels.  If you want raw power, Price, but if you wanted a combination of the 2 Ragnow.  However some stated that Price would be better in the NFL since he has a strong "seat" and doesn't get pushed over by big NT.  The projections for best teams for him to go to had Cincinnati listed as he would assist with stopping the big guys in Pittsburgh and Baltimore.

I was fine with any of the 3 and wasn't upset with the Price pick.  He hasn't lived up to expectations and it is odd that he has struggled so badly at both OC and OG.  I still see him as young though and I think that he could improve.

As to the OSU players on the Bengals, didn't they have only Mike Nugent on their roster at one point.  Price, Hubbard and Jordan are all recent guys, are there any that I am missing?

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 07:40 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Playoff game !!!!

Been there, covered that....

You do know that the comparison is between Alex Smith and Mahomes, right?  Smith has won playoff games as well.

[Catmandude123]

(09-16-2019, 07:47 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Been there, covered that....

You do know that the comparison is between Alex Smith and Mahomes, right?  Smith has won playoff games as well.

Sorry I thought we were talking about Dalton and Mahomes. A lot of QBs have won playoff games but Dalton hasn't. What's your point.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 07:54 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Sorry I thought we were talking about Dalton and Mahomes. A lot of QBs have won playoff games but Dalton hasn't. What's your point.

The original point (which I am trying to avoid making this a Dalton is good vs Dalton is bad) is that they way QBs are evaluated and analyzed isn't consistent.

Smith was replaced by 2 QBs that are considered "dynamic".  I hate that expression, it is the same as a "QB with upside".  I don't like these terms because they basically mean a QB that can run fast when he decides to keep the ball and run.  They aren't "pure" pocket passers and need to be developed into reading defenses and going through their progressions and reads.  When nothing is there they take off and run.

Smith took the 49ners to the NFCCG, was injured, Kap took over, same team, went the SB.  The pundits claimed that the difference between Smith and Kap is that Smith will only get you to the NFCCG while Kap will get you a SB win.

Smith then goes to KC, takes them to the playoffs, wins games, does everything he is supposed to do.  Mahomes takes over, and everyone is crowning him as a superstar.  I admit that Mahomes played great last year, he is off to a good start this year, but he is far from being this perfect QB that he is being made out to be.  They are crediting him for things that should actually go to Reid and even those around him.  His style of play is fun to watch, no doubt, but is it sustainable? 

Wentz on the other hand missed on a throw that Foles also missed on when they won the SB, the WR was blasted when Wentz missed, but Foles was criticized when he missed.  The announcers even said that the difference between Wentz and Foles is that Wentz completes that pass.  Even though Foles won the SB, and Wentz may never make it to one, none of the pundits will ever say that Wentz is only good enough to get you to the playoffs, but Foles will get you the SB win.  The pundits save those statements for the "dynamic" QBs.

However not too many dynamic QBs make it to the SB, let alone win one. 

If you want you can read my first post.  I have tried to keep this from being Dalton vs and focused more on my contempt for want I call lazy QB evaluations.  Dalton just happens to be our QB, with a good OLine and healthy playmakers, I think he is good enough to win SBs.  I felt the HC was a factor in his style and system of play.  I want to give him a year with ZT and fixing the bigger holes than worry about "upgrading" the QB.

[Catmandude123]

(09-16-2019, 08:39 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: The original point (which I am trying to avoid making this a Dalton is good vs Dalton is bad) is that they way QBs are evaluated and analyzed isn't consistent.

Smith was replaced by 2 QBs that are considered "dynamic".  I hate that expression, it is the same as a "QB with upside".  I don't like these terms because they basically mean a QB that can run fast when he decides to keep the ball and run.  They aren't "pure" pocket passers and need to be developed into reading defenses and going through their progressions and reads.  When nothing is there they take off and run.

Smith took the 49ners to the NFCCG, was injured, Kap took over, same team, went the SB.  The pundits claimed that the difference between Smith and Kap is that Smith will only get you to the NFCCG while Kap will get you a SB win.

Smith then goes to KC, takes them to the playoffs, wins games, does everything he is supposed to do.  Mahomes takes over, and everyone is crowning him as a superstar.  I admit that Mahomes played great last year, he is off to a good start this year, but he is far from being this perfect QB that he is being made out to be.  They are crediting him for things that should actually go to Reid and even those around him.  His style of play is fun to watch, no doubt, but is it sustainable? 

Wentz on the other hand missed on a throw that Foles also missed on when they won the SB, the WR was blasted when Wentz missed, but Foles was criticized when he missed.  The announcers even said that the difference between Wentz and Foles is that Wentz completes that pass.  Even though Foles won the SB, and Wentz may never make it to one, none of the pundits will ever say that Wentz is only good enough to get you to the playoffs, but Foles will get you the SB win.  The pundits save those statements for the "dynamic" QBs.

However not too many dynamic QBs make it to the SB, let alone win one. 

If you want you can read my first post.  I have tried to keep this from being Dalton vs and focused more on my contempt for want I call lazy QB evaluations.  Dalton just happens to be our QB, with a good OLine and healthy playmakers, I think he is good enough to win SBs.  I felt the HC was a factor in his style and system of play.  I want to give him a year with ZT and fixing the bigger holes than worry about "upgrading" the QB.

While I understand Dalton's dilemma of  a poor o-line . I believe there is enough tape on Dalton to effectively give him little chance of winning the championship. Why would we keep doing the same thing year after year getting the same results . DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT EVEN IF IT'S WRONG.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 08:51 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: While I understand Dalton's dilemma of  a poor o-line . I believe there is enough tape on Dalton to effectively give him little chance of winning the championship. Why would we keep doing the same thing year after year getting the same results . DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT EVEN IF IT'S WRONG.

I just can't agree with this line of thinking.

Are we getting the same results because of Dalton?  I guess you think so, I don't.  I think the failures of Dalton are due to the OLine and injuries.  Add in some misses on the draft in regards to replacing OLine and it is not a winning formula for any QB.  Then you are just wasting draft picks every year grabbing QB after QB, without fixing any of the underlying causes that leads failures.

I don't mind trying new things, attempting to shake things up.  Just as long as the real issues are addressed.  Fix the real issues first, then focus on "upgrading" the QB if the fixes still aren't enough.

Doing something different just for the sake of doing something different will not lead us to wins or a championship.  

[*psychdoctor*]

(09-16-2019, 07:46 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: I don't know about on this board but I do know that many draft profile sites had 3 OCs as 1st round / 2nd round picks.  Ragnow, Price and Daniels.

If you wanted a technician and pure center, Daniels.  If you want raw power, Price, but if you wanted a combination of the 2 Ragnow.  However some stated that Price would be better in the NFL since he has a strong "seat" and doesn't get pushed over by big NT.  The projections for best teams for him to go to had Cincinnati listed as he would assist with stopping the big guys in Pittsburgh and Baltimore.

I was fine with any of the 3 and wasn't upset with the Price pick.  He hasn't lived up to expectations and it is odd that he has struggled so badly at both OC and OG.  I still see him as young though and I think that he could improve.

As to the OSU players on the Bengals, didn't they have only Mike Nugent on their roster at one point.  Price, Hubbard and Jordan are all recent guys, are there any that I am missing?

Word was the Bengals wanted Ragnow but Lap talked about it all week so the Lions took Ragnow a pick before the Bengals.  Another recurring saga for Bengals and its fans.  Many on this forum were just thrilled that FINALLY a center was drafted.  It looks grim for Price now but he is young, tough, could work out somewhere along the line.  

[THE PISTONS]

(09-16-2019, 09:02 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: I just can't agree with this line of thinking.

Are we getting the same results because of Dalton?  I guess you think so, I don't.  I think the failures of Dalton are due to the OLine and injuries.  Add in some misses on the draft in regards to replacing OLine and it is not a winning formula for any QB.  Then you are just wasting draft picks every year grabbing QB after QB, without fixing any of the underlying causes that leads failures.

I don't mind trying new things, attempting to shake things up.  Just as long as the real issues are addressed.  Fix the real issues first, then focus on "upgrading" the QB if the fixes still aren't enough.

Doing something different just for the sake of doing something different will not lead us to wins or a championship.  

I think that we both know once we get rid of Dalton it will probably take us a LONG TIME to find a capable QB. That was the hallmark of the 90's.

But yeah...this roster has a ton of holes. 3-4 years ago, we lost A LOT of free agents and we drafted poorly replacing them.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

How would Tom Brady do behind the current offensive line in Cincinnati?

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 10:27 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Word was the Bengals wanted Ragnow but Lap talked about it all week so the Lions took Ragnow a pick before the Bengals.  Another recurring saga for Bengals and its fans.  Many on this forum were just thrilled that FINALLY a center was drafted.  It looks grim for Price now but he is young, tough, could work out somewhere along the line.  

I doubt the Lions would take Ragnow just because Lap talked about us taking him all week.

I do see players that fans want get taken before we have a shot at them, happened in the 2nd round of this year's draft.  4 solid OLine prospects to start day 2, Jawaan Taylor, Greg Little, Cody Ford and Dalton Risner.  We are the 10th pick.  Should be able to get 1 of them at our pick.  Broncos snatched Risner right before our pick, even though they were supposedly targeting a QB.  The other three basically went back to back, to teams that you wouldn't have thought would take OLines guys.

NE took Jamie Collins before our pick a few years back. 

It is a double edge sword with the draft though, if all the players you want are there or even the 1 player you really want and your team doesn't take them, you just want to scream, however if the player you want happens to be gone, then you can at least pretend that he was the selection but another team just happened to swipe him.

Now the 2012 draft to me was the unacceptable one.  We had a OG need and 2 first round picks.  David DeCastro was considered the top prospect at the position, it was almost impossible to have him slide to our first pick.  He does, we take Kirkpatrick.  DeCastro falls to our 2nd pick, we trade with NE, the Steelers take DeCastro immediately after, we take Kevin Zeitler.  To add even more injury, we keep Kirkpatrick and let Zeitler walk.

I personally wanted DeCastro and Glenn to put with Whitworth, A. Smith and Kyle Cook.  This year we kinda sorta have Glenn and A. Smith.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-16-2019, 10:38 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: How would Tom Brady do behind the current offensive line in Cincinnati?

We’ll never know, so it’s kind of useless to constantly bring up.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 10:29 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think that we both know once we get rid of Dalton it will probably take us a LONG TIME to find a capable QB. That was the hallmark of the 90's.

But yeah...this roster has a ton of holes. 3-4 years ago, we lost A LOT of free agents and we drafted poorly replacing them.

I will say at least we attempted to draft replacements.  Ced and Jake were supposed to be replacements for Whitworth and Smith.  Sure we missed on those picks but at least the effort was made.

This is probably why 2015 is brought up by the people who defend Dalton.  When having a decent line, run game and healthy players, he had a great season.  It was a shame that he got injured as I don't think we lose to the Steelers if he were playing, we came close to beating them without him, but I don't think the game is close if he was playing.

He hasn't had a shot since then due to the failed attempts at drafting replacements.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 10:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We’ll never know, so it’s kind of useless to constantly bring up.

Yet we do know.  That is why it is brought up.  If Dalton is slow, Brady can only be described as stationary.  If forced off his spot and his rhythm is interrupted, Brady doesn't win.  He doesn't produce.

This is the QB that is considered and called the G.O.A.T. and he needs blocking that Dalton hasn't had since 2015.

[*psychdoctor*]

(09-16-2019, 10:51 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: I doubt the Lions would take Ragnow just because Lap talked about us taking him all week.

I do see players that fans want get taken before we have a shot at them, happened in the 2nd round of this year's draft.  4 solid OLine prospects to start day 2, Jawaan Taylor, Greg Little, Cody Ford and Dalton Risner.  We are the 10th pick.  Should be able to get 1 of them at our pick.  Broncos snatched Risner right before our pick, even though they were supposedly targeting a QB.  The other three basically went back to back, to teams that you wouldn't have thought would take OLines guys.

NE took Jamie Collins before our pick a few years back. 

It is a double edge sword with the draft though, if all the players you want are there or even the 1 player you really want and your team doesn't take them, you just want to scream, however if the player you want happens to be gone, then you can at least pretend that he was the selection but another team just happened to swipe him.

Now the 2012 draft to me was the unacceptable one.  We had a OG need and 2 first round picks.  David DeCastro was considered the top prospect at the position, it was almost impossible to have him slide to our first pick.  He does, we take Kirkpatrick.  DeCastro falls to our 2nd pick, we trade with NE, the Steelers take DeCastro immediately after, we take Kevin Zeitler.  To add even more injury, we keep Kirkpatrick and let Zeitler walk.

I personally wanted DeCastro and Glenn to put with Whitworth, A. Smith and Kyle Cook.  This year we kinda sorta have Glenn and A. Smith.

Ya, the pain at that moment for me was visceral as I did not see Kirkpatrick as the pick.  It was one of those Bengal moments where an average fun says 'not again'.  Zeitler was pretty good though I think they were similar in talent but DeCastro goes to pro-bowl as Steelers are view differently compared to Bengals.  

here is why being a Bengal fan is painful at times...just read this article.  

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2012/4/27/2979495/paul-alexander-bengals-had-decastro-and-zeitler-ranked-equally