Thoughts after a few weeks...

[Nicomo Cosca]

Lol are we seriously still debating if Mahomes is for real or not? One season with 50 TD’s and an MVP isn’t enough, but Dalton’s partial 2015 season where he was kinda sorta in the discussion for MVP (he was never going to win Cam went 15-1) and we’re still using it as evidence 4 years later...

I have never seen people Stan so hard for such an average player in my life...

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-16-2019, 01:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: What I'll say is IF you put a young Tom Brady on the Bengals, he probably doesn't develop into the player he is now. Same with Rodgers. Mahomes.

And if you put a young Andy Dalton on the Chiefs under Andy Reid, he probably ends up better than he is here.

Reid had his own version of Dalton in Alex Smith. He never won shit. Mahomes is a difference maker.

[Catmandude123]

(09-16-2019, 01:18 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: You really think that being faster when running with the ball makes a QB more talented?  Now that is not something to take seriously.

When you say "way" ahead you have to be speaking hyperbolic, if not you really need to readjust how you evaluate QBs.  You are crowning Jackson after 2 games of passing (he ran last year)?  It isn't about being "scared", it is about realizing that these guys aren't as special as the pundits claim.  If the Chiefs WRs start dropping passes or breaking off of routes and not playing DB when the defender is in position, leading to INTs.  Will Mahomes still be "way" ahead of Dalton then?

To me Tom Brady is a game manager, he just manages the offense to fit the system to perfection.  Michael Vick was dynamic, so is Cam Newton, so is Baker Mayfield.  Aaron Rodgers is also dynamic, to be critical of a SB winning QB, but he only has 1 win.  Tom Brady has 6, as a game manager.

I disagree that more often than not Dalton will lose the games or "not win" it for you.  Dalton has shown that with the same protection as Tom Brady, he can make some great and accurate throws.  Even without the best and everything going for him, he has shown an ability to pull off some amazing plays.  Some have not worked out, but no more or less than for Brees, Brady and Rodgers.  Right now, everything is coming up roses for Mahomes and Jackson, but once met with adversity, losing players in FA, injuries, draft bust passes not being caught, defensive adjustments, and we may see that these two are not as "dynamic" as they are being called.

Acceleration is a very important tool for a QB. It may mean the difference in escaping the rush, getting outside the pocket and setting up for downfield passes, or keeping defenses honest when in coverage. SPEED Matters!!!

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 01:31 PM)thillan Wrote: Yes, Lamar is more talented than Dalton.

Yes, even with those WR mistakes (how does that affect QB talent?), Mahomes is LEAGUES ahead of Dalton.

I think it’s funny you haven’t mentioned Watson. Is it because he also played behind a crap o-line, didn’t have a star RB, and one star receiver? His offense might have been worse than ours last year. Perfect example, he has such amazing talent that he can overcome it.

I didn't mention Watson because he is the same as the other guys.  Again this isn't about Dalton good vs Dalton bad.

It is about the perception that these guys are ahead especially "leagues" ahead when it isn't an apples to apples comparison.  In order to see who would be "better" we would need to see both in the same system with the same players and against the same teams.  We can't and won't see that, ever.  So why keep comparing and making these types of claims?

I am all about improving as a team and getting some great talent.  However with our holes on the OLine, LBer and some other areas, fixing the QB doesn't fix the problems.  2 years ago there were people screaming for us to draft a C, many even demanded Price.  Now Price is a "bust" and we still have the holes on the OLine.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 01:34 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Reid had his own version of Dalton in Alex Smith. He never won shit. Mahomes is a difference maker.

What has Mahomes won again? 

[thillan]

(09-16-2019, 02:10 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: What has Mahomes won again? 

MVP. A playoff game

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 01:32 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Lol are we seriously still debating if Mahomes is for real or not? One season with 50 TD’s and an MVP isn’t enough, but Dalton’s partial 2015 season where he was kinda sorta in the discussion for MVP (he was never going to win Cam went 15-1) and we’re still using it as evidence 4 years later...

I have never seen people Stan so hard for such an average player in my life...

Like you do for Mixon?

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 02:11 PM)thillan Wrote: MVP. A playoff game

Yeah, having Reid, Hunt, a OLine, Hill, Kelce, Watkins, some of these pieces were there with Smith, but not all of them. 

The MVP is a popularity contest.  Smith has also won Playoff games. 

[Murdock2420]

(09-16-2019, 02:16 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Yeah, having Reid, Hunt, a OLine, Hill, Kelce, Watkins, some of these pieces were there with Smith, but not all of them. 

The MVP is a popularity contest.  Smith has also wan Playoff games. 

So Smith is better than Dalton as well, good to know.... 

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 02:32 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So Smith is better than Dalton as well, good to know.... 

If that is your rubric.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-16-2019, 02:10 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: What has Mahomes won again? 

MVP for starters.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-16-2019, 02:11 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Like you do for Mixon?

Mixon is only average in your biased opinion. He would have been drafted in the 1st round (which says a lot for a RB) if not for the punch. Every team in the league would be interested in adding him to their roster. You can’t say the same for Andy Dalton, who outside his fan club, is mostly considered pretty mediocre.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 02:35 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: MVP for starters.

Again, popularity contest.  So compared to Smith.  Mahomes has an MVP season due to having players available that Smith didn't have.  Sure he had some of the same players, like Kelce and coaching like Reid.

So winning popularity contest = better.  You are fine with a bad QB as long as he is popular.

[Murdock2420]

(09-16-2019, 02:35 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: If that is your rubric.

To me it is a very simple scale.

When the pressure is on, the lights are brightest and you have to win or go home, does the guy rise to the occasion or does he collapse and look lost?

I can handle a bad loss in a regular season game, happens to every NFL team and every QB, Rodgers, Favre, Manning, etc, etc, but those guys all had one thing in common that I don't ever see in Andy and that is a passion in the bright lights to be the guy leading the team.

Even if you lose the game, it is about looking like you belong on the field with the other team and the moment isn't too big for you. Having the ability to install confidence in your team mates and calm them down in adverse moments, that is a what a good NFL QB can do.

Now, how often in the big moments, when things weren't going great do you remember seeing that from this team?

[bengals67]

(09-16-2019, 01:25 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You ate crow after a 1 point loss to Seattle?

Yes because I have been a sucker for the Bengals since 1967 and once again had false hope even in a loss.

[thillan]

(09-16-2019, 02:40 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Again, popularity contest.  So compared to Smith.  Mahomes has an MVP season due to having players available that Smith didn't have.  Sure he had some of the same players, like Kelce and coaching like Reid.

So winning popularity contest = better.  You are fine with a bad QB as long as he is popular.

Oh stop. There is weight to winning MVP.

Who did Patrick have that Smith didn’t? He had all the big names: Hill, Kelce and Hunt. Your telling me that if you take Sammy Watkins from Mahomes he doesn’t win MVP/a playoff game?

Regardless, this has turned into a QB thread. We can all agree there are many more holes to fix, and Dalton would play better behind a good o line.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-16-2019, 02:40 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Again, popularity contest.  So compared to Smith.  Mahomes has an MVP season due to having players available that Smith didn't have.  Sure he had some of the same players, like Kelce and coaching like Reid.

So winning popularity contest = better.  You are fine with a bad QB as long as he is popular.

Yeah, it was just a popularity contest, and not the fact that he passed for 50 TD’s and 5K yds...

And we all know the big market KC Chiefs get all the attention lol

You should really just stop.

[TheBengalsMind]

I've got a few thoughts of my own.

First, I see a lot of people clamor for the next man up at the QB position. I think it'd more then likely lead to bad results.

My reasoning is just looking at the projections after two weeks.

Dalton is on pace for 744 passes (A NFL record) to 488 completions (A NFL record) for 5,832 yards (A NFL record), 32 TD's, 8 interceptions, a 65.6 completion percentage, 99.3 QBR, 72 sacks.

Do I think Dalton will keep this pace? No, simply because 72 sacks is a lot.

But just how many more yards and TD's are people thinking Ryan Finley as a rookie would get?

Are you expecting him to be on pace for 7,000 yards and 64 TD's? Do people not realize just how ridiculous they sound?

2. I'm not putting the blame on Zac Taylor.

Zac Taylor had nothing to do with the line becoming this bad.

I put that squarely were the blame belongs on the management. They went 0-4 trying to build this line.

I'm talking about Jake Fisher, Cedric Ogbuehi, Billy Price and not signing Andrew Whitworth. Zac Taylor had nothing to do with any of that.

Really with Jonah Williams, unfortunate injury, we're 0-5.

All they had to do was hit 2 out of the 5.

Can you imagine Williams (if he didn't get injured), Whitworth, Hopkins (our best linemen this year), Glenn and Smith?

It might not be great, but we'd be in a much better situation than we are.

Zac had nothing to do with the previous 3 straight losing seasons.

3. Having said that. How they respond in this next game is crucial.

The team has continually spoke glowingly about Zac and I have no indication that they feel otherwise in the slightest.

But are they gonna give up or are they gonna do what Zac has been preaching about being together, having confidence and being aggressive?

4. 29.5 yards rushing is unacceptable. I understand the offensive line has had there woes, but your telling we can't even average 60 yards a game?

We're on pace for 472 rushing yards on the year.

On average, the worst non-QB rushing team wins 5 games a season from 1978 to 2018. This year, so far, we are the worst. The most games ever won with the worst rush offense? 11 games. The 1986 Patriots. The only playoff team ever with that stat, since 1978 I believe.

Most of the time they're in the running for the number 1 pick.

Having a winning season is hard when an entire aspect of your offensive play calling is this unreliable.

I'm still rooting for them and I hope they get win number 1 this week.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 02:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yeah, it was just a popularity contest, and not the fact that he passed for 50 TD’s and 5K yds...

And we all know the big market KC Chiefs get all the attention lol

You should really just stop.

Yeah, because I don't agree with your position means that I should just stop.

How many times do people claim those MVP awards are just popularity contest?  Now all of a sudden they "mean" something because it supports your position about how much you love a player that you would hate if he was here.

If Marvin drafted Mahomes and told Mahomes to not improvise (Marvin hated improv as it has a tendency to lead to injuries) and he didn't have the security blankets he has in KC, you would be on here calling for us to draft Tua next year as Mahomes doesn't have "it".

I am not saying Mahomes didn't have a great year, but it was only 1 year.  To say that he is better than Alex Smith shows that you only like QBs that pundits claim are great, as long as the pundits love the guy and gives him a pass on his play then he has to have "it".  The media has always been down on Dalton so that is why you dislike him.

As someone on here stated.  If we had Mahomes and KC had Dalton, Mahomes wouldn't be as "dynamic" and Dalton would have better stats.  You would be crying about how much better Dalton is over Mahomes.

Of course I am new here, however you don't sound like you really understand football.  If all you have are these weak post, then I will have to just straight up ignore you, since you don't bring anything of substance to the conversation.

[OswaldsLegacy]

(09-16-2019, 02:45 PM)thillan Wrote: Oh stop. There is weight to winning MVP.

Who did Patrick have that Smith didn’t? He had all the big names: Hill, Kelce and Hunt. Your telling me that if you take Sammy Watkins from Mahomes he doesn’t win MVP/a playoff game?

Regardless, this has turned into a QB thread. We can all agree there are many more holes to fix, and Dalton would play better behind a good o line.

Yes.  Smith also didn't have the Oline that Mahomes has.  It is a small thing, but a very important one.

I was only pointing out my thoughts on your assessment of QBs in general.  I wasn't really trying to be a "Dalton Defender" however if the criticism on Dalton is because he doesn't have the stats that the "Dynamic" QBs have then it has to be addressed.

I don't care who our QB is, if we don't fix the line, then he won't be "dynamic".  Without better defensive play, we will not win any SBs. 

Foles, Dilfer, Eli Manning and I would even add the young Russell Wilson and Roethlisberger as proof that a QB of Dalton's caliber is in fact good enough to win SBs.  All of those "dynamic" guys haven't won anything of value, maybe a MVP award, but those are empty when Brady (who is the perfect example of a game manager) wins SB after SB.