(09-22-2019, 12:28 AM)Nately120 Wrote: So people would rather go 0-16 with "not Marvin" than go 8-8 with Marvin as the HC?  Geez, I'm glad Marvin is gone but this is insane.

As it has been pointed out, we've gone from "We're already X amount of games better due to the coaching" to "Even if we go 0-16 ZT is better than Marvin."  So if the Steelers fire Tomlin and their next HC goes 0-16 we're going to be worried he's going to be better than Tomlin?  We aren't going to laugh?  What the hell, folks!?  This is getting wacky.

I mean yea I would, why miss the playoffs and get pick15-20 when we can miss the playoffs and get a top 3 pick?

Either way we suck and miss the playoffs, just one of these raises our chances at landing an elite talent.

Its not about whos better but if we are gonna suck for a couple years then lets do that right rather than middling  and missing both the playoffs and the top draft picks year after year.

(09-22-2019, 12:39 AM)BobJones4980 Wrote: I mean yea I would, why miss the playoffs and get pick15-20 when we can miss the playoffs and get a top 3 pick?

Either way we suck and miss the playoffs, just one of these raises our chances at landing an elite talent.

Its not about whos better but if we are gonna suck for a couple years then lets do that right rather than middling  and missing both the playoffs and the top draft picks year after year.

Man, you all must have LOVED the 90's!

Stockholm Syndrome. You all long for the 90's! Getting all those Top 5 picks REALLY helped us build a dynasty.

Let me clue you in on something - A 3-13 team is more than 1 good top pick away from contending. They are about 7-10 starters away.

This current Bengals team is probably 5-7 quality starters away.

We play the Bills, Steelers, and Cardinals. Those teams are bad and we will win some of those games. Probably atleast 1. Maybe 2. When we do, the pendulum will shift and fans will be talking playoffs.

i'm just gonna throw this theory out there but.....

it took the squeeler game for the bengals to implode last season.
it took the seattle game this season for the bengals to implode?

after those 2 games, the team just spiraled out of control thereafter.

(09-22-2019, 12:44 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Man, you all must have LOVED the 90's!

Stockholm Syndrome. You all long for the 90's! Getting all those Top 5 picks REALLY helped us build a dynasty.

Let me clue you in on something - A 3-13 team is more than 1 good top pick away from contending. They are about 7-10 starters away.

This current Bengals team is probably 5-7 quality starters away.

We play the Bills, Steelers, and Cardinals. Those teams are bad and we will win some of those games. Probably atleast 1. Maybe 2. When we do, the pendulum will shift and fans will be talking playoffs.

I get what your saying but given the option of 8-8 or 0-16 season as the guy I responded to stated I would take an 0-16 season. Why wouldnt we? 8-8 is no playoffs and a 15-20 draft pick vs 0-16 and pick #1 with a higher chance at a potential franchise player.

It would be crazy to choose 8-8 in this scenario.

You guys are crazy.

(09-21-2019, 05:39 PM)Adamantium Wrote: Absolutely not. I don't care if ZT goes 0-16 and Marv would have gone 8-8. I'd still rather have ZT. Because with ZT there's potential. Marv had no more potential.

And there's no freaking way we go 0-16. 

Stop it. Marv hasn't gotten 8 wins out of this team since 2015. That was 4 seasons ago. 

(09-21-2019, 07:58 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: LOL. My how some have shifted the target once the arrow was launched.

Offseason: ANY Coach is an upgrade to Marvin. The new staff will coach these guys up as Marvin and company failed at developing players. The new coaching staff will improve our Win/Loss Record.

2 games into the season: Our roster lacks talent. Even if Taylor goes 0-2, he's better than Marvin.

A lot of fans don't hold the team accountable. They just shift what they consider success. Now apparently 0-16 would be success for atleast some fans.

Holey shit. You twisted that up worse than Napoleon McCallum's knee on that Monday night game. 

(09-21-2019, 05:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If a HC takes a team Marvin Lewis could get 8 wins out of and gets 0 wins out of them I would seriously doubt said HC with 0 wins would have much potential, at all.  I also don't think ZT goes 0-16, but if he were actually good for 8 fewer wins than Marvin Lewis I'd say we'd be insane to NOT fire him.

I beyond fine with Marvin being gone, but if ZT goes 0-16 and we are still hyped about how much "potential" he has, then we are bordering on crazy.

I was, of course, exaggerating. The point is, I'm happy and excited ZT is here, even at 0-2. He's not a miracle worker and given this roster, I wouldn't expect him to turn this team into SB contenders at this point. It's clear now that he needs time to rebuild. The potential is there though. 

It's gotta be a given we at least beat the Jets and Dolphins. No way are we THAT bad. And then there's bound to be 2-3 games we eke out, perhaps unexpectedly. Likely more if this team shows up again like it did in Seattle. I'd say we'll be somewhere around 6-10 by the end of the season. Not good, but not horrible. Below average, but with this roster, that's a positive.

As for those scoffing at the idea of Taylor needing a few seasons to reshape this team.... just look at Kyle Shanahan. I believe this is his third year as coach of the Niners and he's finally to a point where he's getting things really moving the way he wants. The Niners are finally looking like they MAY be a playoff contender again. I believe this team will play out similarly. 

(09-22-2019, 04:01 AM)Adamantium Wrote: I was, of course, exaggerating. The point is, I'm happy and excited ZT is here, even at 0-2. He's not a miracle worker and given this roster, I wouldn't expect him to turn this team into SB contenders at this point. It's clear now that he needs time to rebuild. The potential is there though. 

It's gotta be a given we at least beat the Jets and Dolphins. No way are we THAT bad. And then there's bound to be 2-3 games we eke out, perhaps unexpectedly. Likely more if this team shows up again like it did in Seattle. I'd say we'll be somewhere around 6-10 by the end of the season. Not good, but not horrible. Below average, but with this roster, that's a positive.

As for those scoffing at the idea of Taylor needing a few seasons to reshape this team.... just look at Kyle Shanahan. I believe this is his third year as coach of the Niners and he's finally to a point where he's getting things really moving the way he wants. The Niners are finally looking like they MAY be a playoff contender again. I believe this team will play out similarly. 

I don't disagree, but it's hard to tell if anyone is exaggerating about ZT since we are still somewhat in that "insane period of newness."  People were so starry eyed with ZT it wouldn't surprise me if they found a way to see a ZT loss as more inspiring than a Marvin Lewis win.  

After week 1 we were talking about surprising the NFL, then after week 2 it's all over, and if we beat Buffalo we're going to realize that being .500 is just around the corner and the AFC North is wide open and so on and so forth.  That's what makes the early weeks of the NFL so wacky, you are a single game away from talking about the draft or the playoffs.

(09-22-2019, 01:02 AM)BobJones4980 Wrote: I get what your saying but given the option of 8-8 or 0-16 season as the guy I responded to stated I would take an 0-16 season. Why wouldnt we? 8-8 is no playoffs and a 15-20 draft pick vs 0-16 and pick #1 with a higher chance at a potential franchise player.

It would be crazy to choose 8-8 in this scenario.

0-16 is just a terrible stain. You do lose fans. You become a laughingstock. It kills your culture. It's just a brutal season.

You see that even now that the Browns are loaded with talent, it's hard to train a roster to win that is used to losing. And all those high draft picks...well they traded a lot away already.

In an 8-8 season, you had some good things. You likely have some building blocks. Your coaches likely are atleast average. Free agents might still want to go there.

(09-22-2019, 09:54 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't disagree, but it's hard to tell if anyone is exaggerating about ZT since we are still somewhat in that "insane period of newness."  People were so starry eyed with ZT it wouldn't surprise me if they found a way to see a ZT loss as more inspiring than a Marvin Lewis win.  

After week 1 we were talking about surprising the NFL, then after week 2 it's all over, and if we beat Buffalo we're going to realize that being .500 is just around the corner and the AFC North is wide open and so on and so forth.  That's what makes the early weeks of the NFL so wacky, you are a single game away from talking about the draft or the playoffs.

Oh no doubt. It's like that every year too. IF we beat Buffalo, we can string together some wins and make the playoffs.

I remember the end of last year, we were like 4-8 or something and some people were like We can make the playoffs!

(09-21-2019, 05:07 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So the question is, IF Taylor wins 0 games this year, would that make him a worse coach than Marvin?

Well it certainly isn't going to scream "THE GREATEST ROOKIE COACH IN THE HISTORY OF FOOTBALL"  now is it?
But hey...nothing beats winning like yet another moral victory. We're going to win the Moral Victory Super Bowl this year..

(09-22-2019, 10:17 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: 0-16 is just a terrible stain. You do lose fans. You become a laughingstock. It kills your culture. It's just a brutal season.

You see that even now that the Browns are loaded with talent, it's hard to train a roster to win that is used to losing. And all those high draft picks...well they traded a lot away already.

In an 8-8 season, you had some good things. You likely have some building blocks. Your coaches likely are atleast average. Free agents might still want to go there.

Yea im sure more 8-8 seasons will keep fans around.

This franchise is already stained, you know, the one that hasnt won a playoff game in 28 seasons. We already are a laughing stock, we have had a shitty culture for years(Lets hope thats changing).

Sorry but give me the stain of 0-16 and a shot at a generational talent at QB rather than being mediocre season after season just to keep a couple fans and not "stain" a franchise that frankly is already "stained".


Don't get me wrong, I hope we turn it around and go 14-2 but if this team is maxed out at the 7-9, 8-8, 9-6 area with a first round playoff loss or no playoffs at all, then lets start the rebuild and hope to get a franchise QB that can take us past that.

I already know your gonna point out that finding that QB is no guarantee but what is the alternative? Just settle for mediocrity for the rest of time because we are afraid of missing on getting a franchise guy at the top of the draft?

(09-21-2019, 04:47 PM)TKUHL Wrote: I was thinking if Taylor’s Bengals go 0-16 would it change the way you view Marvin as a HC. May not be fair since Taylor has a different staff but many of the key players are the same. I don’t think Marvin is with any team at the moment but maybe Marvin will actually benefit from a winless season. I’ve been as critical as anyone wanting Marvin gone years ago. In no way what so ever am I suggesting we bring him back, or if we are better with or without Marvin. I know there are a few here that think any kind of signification change with this organization will automatically damn us back to the 90’s. I’m Just curious what everyone thinks.

Then Taylor will officially be worse than Dave Shula.

 

3rd and 10...and they throw a 1 yard WR screen then punt.

Our offense is VERY predictable. It's a combination of sending a WR in motion and faking a jet sweep, throwing a 7 yard out, or a screen to a WR, RB, or TE.

And I think the Bills and every other team we play knows it.

ahhhh I knew I had this post somewhere. We may be able to answer op’s question before the mid way point.

So does a winless season by Taylor change the way you view Marvin as a coach.

What do you mean if? We are well on the way.

Whatever we think about Marvin, if Taylor goes 0-16 he should be fired. How do we not have any ramification for that?

If the o-line is bad fix it, try to fix it, I don't see any attempts at repair or hiding your faults. Bad coaching. Is he up 20 hours a day or clocking in and clocking out his hours? Perhaps our team would be better without line injuries, and with AJ Green on the field, but every other team deals with injuries too. We are probably .500 or worse with AJ on the field.

The issue is not firing Taylor, it's who would want to come here to replace him. Only those money hungry that are not worth it anywhere else. This team needs to be sold lol.

In my opinion you may as well get used to Zack Taylor he’s not going anywhere. If history repeats itself look what happened with Dave Shula. I think Zack Taylor will at least play through his contract even if we go 0-16.

I'm rather bumfuzzled as to why this is such a heated argument.

I think everyone agreed Marvin needed to go. For reference, check any game thread from the past 3 seasons.

With whom he was replaced has no bearing on the first premise. That's a separate discussion.

Even if the Bungles hired Mr. Potato Head to replace Marvin (which they might have actually done), it doesn't change the fact that moving on from Merv was the correct thing to do. Therefore, discussing whether or not we'd be better off right now if he was still here is pointless, because we all agree we weren't going to be where we wanted to be and had no chance whatsoever to get there. Does it matter if Zac goes 0-16 and Merv might have gone 4-12? Do those 4 wins make it that much easier to sleep at night? Melatonin is a better option, or just drink heavily. If you've hitched your hopes to this wagon, you've probably been engaged in the latter since around 7 am today.

The question going forward is whether or not Zac Taylor is going to be a good coach. I'll be accused of some hyperbole here, but his early returns have not been fantastic. I'm going to withhold judgment until I see what he can do with at least some semblance of a team. That dreck we trot out there on Sundays is a losing proposition for anyone. Almighty Merv included.