Drafting a QB and hoping he becomes Mahomes is an idealistic approach that will
Ultimately fail us. Now this isn't a pro Dalton or let's not draft a QB early thread because I think it is time to move on from him.( I think it will be beneficial for both parties)
Also I don't think the Bengals approach is all that terrible in acquiring talent but it does need some tinkering ( like actually signing a top free agent once in a while).
If this team is going to be yearly championship contender it's going to be able to be brave and take more risks.
Here are some things I would suggest that could make us a contender next season.
1.) Decide wether your major free agents are apart of your future plans or not. I am looking at Billings, Green, and Hopkins. If they are then sign them before the off season starts if not then trade them at the deadline.
2.) Trim the fat; cut Glenn, Hart, P.Brown, Kirkpatrick, S.Willams, B Webb, and trade Dalton( should get you a 4th or 3rd Rd pick)
3.) Sign two starters in free agency hopefully at LB & RT. Two guys I am looking at it Brian Bulaga RT from Green Bay & Cory Littleton from the Rams.
4.) Sign some locker room guys in free agency.
5.) Trade back for multiple picks in the draft especially if we have a top 3 pick.

(10-02-2019, 02:53 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Drafting a QB and hoping he becomes Mahomes is an idealistic approach that will
Ultimately fail us. Now this isn't a pro Dalton or let's not draft a QB early thread because I think it is time to move on from him.( I think it will be beneficial for both parties)
Also I don't think the Bengals approach is all that terrible in acquiring talent but it does need some tinkering ( like actually signing a top free agent once in a while).
If this team is going to be yearly championship contender it's going to be able to be brave and take more risks.
Here are some things I would suggest that could make us a contender next season.
1.) Decide wether your major free agents are apart of your future plans or not. I am looking at Billings, Green, and Hopkins. If they are then sign them before the off season starts if not then trade them at the deadline.
2.) Trim the fat; cut Glenn, Hart, P.Brown, Kirkpatrick, S.Willams, B Webb, and trade Dalton( should get you a 4th or 3rd Rd pick)
3.) Sign two starters in free agency hopefully at LB & RT. Two guys I am looking at it Brian Bulaga RT from Green Bay & Cory Littleton from the Rams.
4.) Sign some locker room guys in free agency.
5.) Trade back for multiple picks in the draft especially if we have a top 3 pick.

So you think we can basically let 7-8 of our better players go...and sign 2 starters...and rely on drafting with some extra picks to be a contender next year?

What you describe is basically a rebuild that would take 3-4 years.

Not that I'm against that...just we won't be contending next year.

The rebuild is probably needed. Our problem is ownership seems incapable of understanding that the ONLY effective way to build winning football teams is from the lines out. If your lines are effective everything else works a lot better - if they are not nothing works properly.

To be honest you don't need high first round picks at WR or TE or even RB if your line is good, because then they have the needed time for plays to develop. It also applies to QB. A good line and the QB has time to scan the field and find the best target. A bad line (or a horrific line like ours) and the QB is all messed up with no time to scan the field, having to get rid of the ball immediately and a messed up internal clock.

This also applies to Defensive Line. Ours is barely average (sorry but it is true) in that they only intermittently get pressure and are absolutely clownish at the basic football task of sealing the edges. Our LB issues get magnified enormously because our DL is incompetent at this basic task. And their near total lack of push and pressure gives the opposing QB a nice, big pocket and plenty of time to scan the field and do their thing.

It hurts we took Ross 1 pick ahead of Mahomes. Of course here, Mahomes probably would have not developed.

(10-02-2019, 02:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So you think we can basically let 7-8 of our better players go...and sign 2 starters...and rely on drafting with some extra picks to be a contender next year?

What you describe is basically a rebuild that would take 3-4 years.

Not that I'm against that...just we won't be contending next year.

I would say your forgetting a couple of young guys that already here who have the potential to be starters. In Phillips @CB, Williams at LT, and Pratt LB. Is the roster going to be perfect no but it will be good.

(10-02-2019, 03:18 PM)Joelist Wrote: The rebuild is probably needed. Our problem is ownership seems incapable of understanding that the ONLY effective way to build winning football teams is from the lines out. If your lines are effective everything else works a lot better - if they are not nothing works properly.

To be honest you don't need high first round picks at WR or TE or even RB if your line is good, because then they have the needed time for plays to develop. It also applies to QB. A good line and the QB has time to scan the field and find the best target. A bad line (or a horrific line like ours) and the QB is all messed up with no time to scan the field, having to get rid of the ball immediately and a messed up internal clock.

This also applies to Defensive Line. Ours is barely average (sorry but it is true) in that they only intermittently get pressure and are absolutely clownish at the basic football task of sealing the edges. Our LB issues get magnified enormously because our DL is incompetent at this basic task. And their near total lack of push and pressure gives the opposing QB a nice, big pocket and plenty of time to scan the field and do their thing.

I honestly have to ask you what you have been watching when it comes to the defensive line? They do collapse the pocket and they do there Job in the running game. 

(10-02-2019, 03:18 PM)Joelist Wrote: The rebuild is probably needed. Our problem is ownership seems incapable of understanding that the ONLY effective way to build winning football teams is from the lines out. If your lines are effective everything else works a lot better - if they are not nothing works properly.

To be honest you don't need high first round picks at WR or TE or even RB if your line is good, because then they have the needed time for plays to develop. It also applies to QB. A good line and the QB has time to scan the field and find the best target. A bad line (or a horrific line like ours) and the QB is all messed up with no time to scan the field, having to get rid of the ball immediately and a messed up internal clock.

This also applies to Defensive Line. Ours is barely average (sorry but it is true) in that they only intermittently get pressure and are absolutely clownish at the basic football task of sealing the edges. Our LB issues get magnified enormously because our DL is incompetent at this basic task. And their near total lack of push and pressure gives the opposing QB a nice, big pocket and plenty of time to scan the field and do their thing.

This is an ownership who has spent three of their last five first round picks on the O-line - and in that time period also a second round pick and traded for a lineman with a top 5 salary in the franchise - so I think they get that.

They actually got criticized for going back-to-back O-line in that infamous 2015 draft as it wasn't a position of immediate need. 

So they have addressed the problem but talent assessment (or development?) has let them down. That 2015 draft killed us.

I'm surprised there haven't been more changes in the scouting department because that draft was a shocker. Two tackles, a linebacker, a TE, even a corner and a safety - that's almost exactly this off-season's shopping list and it's because we've come out of the draft with almost nothing: a rotational TE.

(10-02-2019, 02:53 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Drafting a QB and hoping he becomes Mahomes is an idealistic approach that will
Ultimately fail us. Now this isn't a pro Dalton or let's not draft a QB early thread because I think it is time to move on from him.( I think it will be beneficial for both parties)
Also I don't think the Bengals approach is all that terrible in acquiring talent but it does need some tinkering ( like actually signing a top free agent once in a while).
If this team is going to be yearly championship contender it's going to be able to be brave and take more risks.
Here are some things I would suggest that could make us a contender next season.
1.) Decide wether your major free agents are apart of your future plans or not. I am looking at Billings, Green, and Hopkins. If they are then sign them before the off season starts if not then trade them at the deadline.
2.) Trim the fat; cut Glenn, Hart, P.Brown, Kirkpatrick, S.Willams, B Webb, and trade Dalton( should get you a 4th or 3rd Rd pick)
3.) Sign two starters in free agency hopefully at LB & RT. Two guys I am looking at it Brian Bulaga RT from Green Bay & Cory Littleton from the Rams.
4.) Sign some locker room guys in free agency.
5.) Trade back for multiple picks in the draft especially if we have a top 3 pick.

I am a big fan of Littleon.  

I think if the Bengals somehow can come away from the draft with Thomas (OT), Simmons (LB) and Burrow (QB) and get some blue chip FA at OT and another backer, then things would improve.  They could put Thomas at LT, J. Williams at LG.  Hopkins at Center, Miller or someone in the draft at RG and FA RT.  Simmons, Littleton, and Pratt would be solid backers.  This team could be different.  I know drafting is a risk and there are more misses than hits hence, reason for many picks, but I seriously hope the Bengals get quality instead of quantity in the upcoming draft.  

BTW, since you mentioned Simmons in another thread, I watched his games, and he is the real deal.  The guy has long arms and moves like a safety...

(10-02-2019, 04:40 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: This is an ownership who has spent three of their last five first round picks on the O-line - and in that time period also a second round pick and traded for a lineman with a top 5 salary in the franchise - so I think they get that.

They actually got criticized for going back-to-back O-line in that infamous 2015 draft as it wasn't a position of immediate need. 

So they have addressed the problem but talent assessment (or development?) has let them down. That 2015 draft killed us.

I'm surprised there haven't been more changes in the scouting department because that draft was a shocker. Two tackles, a linebacker, a TE, even a corner and a safety - that's almost exactly this off-season's shopping list and it's because we've come out of the draft with almost nothing: a rotational TE.

The Bengals need to expand the draft department personnel and get someone other than Tobin as GM

(10-02-2019, 02:53 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Drafting a QB and hoping he becomes Mahomes is an idealistic approach that will
Ultimately fail us. Now this isn't a pro Dalton or let's not draft a QB early thread because I think it is time to move on from him.( I think it will be beneficial for both parties)
Also I don't think the Bengals approach is all that terrible in acquiring talent but it does need some tinkering ( like actually signing a top free agent once in a while).
If this team is going to be yearly championship contender it's going to be able to be brave and take more risks.
Here are some things I would suggest that could make us a contender next season.
1.) Decide wether your major free agents are apart of your future plans or not. I am looking at Billings, Green, and Hopkins. If they are then sign them before the off season starts if not then trade them at the deadline.
2.) Trim the fat; cut Glenn, Hart, P.Brown, Kirkpatrick, S.Willams, B Webb, and trade Dalton( should get you a 4th or 3rd Rd pick)
3.) Sign two starters in free agency hopefully at LB & RT. Two guys I am looking at it Brian Bulaga RT from Green Bay & Cory Littleton from the Rams.
4.) Sign some locker room guys in free agency.
5.) Trade back for multiple picks in the draft especially if we have a top 3 pick.

I'll go one at a time:

1.  Trading guy at the deadline doesn't really happen in the NFL.  With the way the Bengals do business and their aversion to free agency, there is no way I would let any good player leave, because he won't be replace and the draft is a complete crapshoot.

2.  There's no need to cut guys, mainly for the reason in #1.  That being said, there's no way you can re-sign Glenn to a big deal as he can't stay healthy.  The other guys are good enough to play a role.  They would be good for for depth and starting when needed.

3.  You can dream about this one (so can I).  It needs to happen, and if it does, they need to get an impact guy.  There's no sense in signing an average guy to big money (like Kwon Alexander).  Spend the extra 2-3 million and get a CJ Mosely.

4.  Great idea.

5.  Bad idea - If you are top 5 AND you do the above (sign some free agents) then you can't pass on the chance to take a franchise QB or a guy like Chase Young.  We have gone years in Cincy with good, not elite players.  The chance to grab a legit franchise QB or a legit pass rusher is too good to pass up.

This team is not that far away.  We already have a potential stud OT (Jonah) waiting to play.  We getting a good starter at LG and RT would make this offense pretty damn good.  Take Dalton's money and use that to sign some proven guys.  The skill guys are good enough to win with (Green, Ross, Boyd, Eifert, Mixon, Gio, Uzomah)

A couple of true speed linebackers would really help this team.  If the defense isn't on the field 75% of the time, they would be better off as well. 

This next offseason will show you what commitment this team truly has to winning.  If they sit on their money and don't sign any outside help, nothing will ever change.

(10-02-2019, 04:54 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I'll go one at a time:

1.  Trading guy at the deadline doesn't really happen in the NFL.  With the way the Bengals do business and their aversion to free agency, there is no way I would let any good player leave, because he won't be replace and the draft is a complete crapshoot.

2.  There's no need to cut guys, mainly for the reason in #1.  That being said, there's no way you can re-sign Glenn to a big deal as he can't stay healthy.  The other guys are good enough to play a role.  They would be good for for depth and starting when needed.

3.  You can dream about this one (so can I).  It needs to happen, and if it does, they need to get an impact guy.  There's no sense in signing an average guy to big money (like Kwon Alexander).  Spend the extra 2-3 million and get a CJ Mosely.

4.  Great idea.

5.  Bad idea - If you are top 5 AND you do the above (sign some free agents) then you can't pass on the chance to take a franchise QB or a guy like Chase Young.  We have gone years in Cincy with good, not elite players.  The chance to grab a legit franchise QB or a legit pass rusher is too good to pass up.

This team is not that far away.  We already have a potential stud OT (Jonah) waiting to play.  We getting a good starter at LG and RT would make this offense pretty damn good.  Take Dalton's money and use that to sign some proven guys.  The skill guys are good enough to win with (Green, Ross, Boyd, Eifert, Mixon, Gio, Uzomah)

A couple of true speed linebackers would really help this team.  If the defense isn't on the field 75% of the time, they would be better off as well. 

This next offseason will show you what commitment this team truly has to winning.  If they sit on their money and don't sign any outside help, nothing will ever change.

Honestly, you can say we're not too far away from being good...but just about every team in the NFL is closer to being good or good.

Plus, we have a bunch of aging veterans.

Drafts generally yield no value in Year 1 for us. Maybe 1 decent starter.

Without signing 3-4 upgrades in free agency, we're running on a treadmill chasing a carrot.

(10-02-2019, 04:43 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I am a big fan of Littleon.  

I think if the Bengals somehow can come away from the draft with Thomas (OT), Simmons (LB) and Burrow (QB) and get some blue chip FA at OT and another backer, then things would improve.  They could put Thomas at LT, J. Williams at LG.  Hopkins at Center, Miller or someone in the draft at RG and FA RT.  Simmons, Littleton, and Pratt would be solid backers.  This team could be different.  I know drafting is a risk and there are more misses than hits hence, reason for many picks, but I seriously hope the Bengals get quality instead of quantity in the upcoming draft.  

BTW, since you mentioned Simmons in another thread, I watched his games, and he is the real deal.  The guy has long arms and moves like a safety...

I hoping we end up with the 3rd pick in the draft and make a similar deal like the Colts did in 2018 move three spots back but get a couple of seconds and third RD picks to help us. For example if Denver is at 6 we trade the third overall pick for 6, 38,70th, 75th(They have the Steelers 3rd RD pick) and future 2nd Rd pick. If that were to happen I don't think we can get both Simmons and Thomas but we could get at least one of them.
6th- Simmons
Late first Burrow
38th Trey Adams

(10-02-2019, 05:36 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I hoping we end up with the 3rd pick in the draft and make a similar deal like the Colts did in 2018 move three spots back but get a couple of seconds and third RD picks to help us. For example if Denver is at 6 we trade the third overall pick for 6, 38,70th, 75th(They have the Steelers 3rd RD pick) and future 2nd Rd pick. If that were to happen I don't think we can get both Simmons and Thomas but we could get at least one of them.
6th- Simmons
Late first Burrow
38th Trey Adams

If our second round guys turn out like drew sample it would be a waste. We are relying on a 4th round guy starting at guard. I don’t have any faith we can draft anymore

(10-02-2019, 05:01 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly, you can say we're not too far away from being good...but just about every team in the NFL is closer to being good or good.

Plus, we have a bunch of aging veterans.

Drafts generally yield no value in Year 1 for us. Maybe 1 decent starter.

Without signing 3-4 upgrades in free agency, we're running on a treadmill chasing a carrot.

It's closer to 2-3 starters than 1 in the Draft. Point taken we do need Free agents idk if it's 3 to 4 but it's significant.
2016 Jackson, Boyd, Billings
2017 Mixon, Lawson, Glasgow
2018 Bates and Hubbard

(10-02-2019, 05:41 PM)Andy2AJ Wrote: If our second round guys turn out like drew sample it would be a waste. We are relying on a 4th round guy starting at guard. I don’t have any faith we can draft anymore

What if He ends up like Bates, Mixon, or Boyd?

(10-02-2019, 05:36 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I hoping we end up with the 3rd pick in the draft and make a similar deal like the Colts did in 2018 move three spots back but get a couple of seconds and third RD picks to help us. For example if Denver is at 6 we trade the third overall pick for 6, 38,70th, 75th(They have the Steelers 3rd RD pick) and future 2nd Rd pick. If that were to happen I don't think we can get both Simmons and Thomas but we could get at least one of them.
6th- Simmons
Late first Burrow
38th Trey Adams

I watched Adams along with Eason the other day.  Is Adams healthy? 

 Also, who is that LT for USC Austin Jackson?  He looks like a great player.  If he comes out next year as Junior, I really like that player.   

(10-02-2019, 04:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It hurts we took Ross 1 pick ahead of Mahomes. Of course here, Mahomes probably would have not developed.

Nonsense. Palmer was looking like a top tier QB before he got hurt. Andy Dalton took this team to 5 straight playoff appearances. Mahomes would succeed anywhere he went. He’s that good. Would he throw for 50 TDs, 5k yds, and win MVP? Maybe not, but like people love to bring up, even Dalton was in the discussion for MVP here.

I think the key is fixing the OL and decide from there where we need to go. Well, OL and LB.

(10-02-2019, 08:08 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I think the key is fixing the OL and decide from there where we need to go. Well, OL and LB.

We’ve been trying to do that for 4 years though. It’s not working. We need a QB that at least gives us a slightly better chance with a different type of skill set than Dalton possesses. We know it won’t work with him.

(10-02-2019, 05:45 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: It's closer to 2-3 starters than 1 in the Draft. Point taken we do need Free agents idk if it's 3 to 4 but it's significant.
2016 Jackson, Boyd, Billings
2017 Mixon, Lawson, Glasgow
2018 Bates and Hubbard

You can add Ross to 2017, at least sort of. By the time he's off IR again he'll have played in less than half the games the team has played.

2019 it looks like it's going to be 0 so far as MJ is headed to the bench.