Can we please start playing Mr. Pratt and Jordan Evans in the base packages??it's clear to me and everyone else around that this is clearly a lost season, Preston brown and nick vigil are not getting it done simple and plain..

Neither possess the football instincts necessary to be successful at the linebacker position and as long as we keep trotting these guys out there the rest of the defense will suffer for it..

I was done with Brown and Vigil before last season began let alone this year. Our LBs are as bad as our OL.

(10-07-2019, 10:30 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: I was done with Brown and Vigil before last season began let alone this year. Our LBs are as bad as our OL.

Last season was Brown's first season and he was actually a pretty darn good LB when in Buffalo, so I'm not sure why you were "done" with Brown before last season began?

Brown was able to be productive in Buffalo's downhill defensive scheme when he didn't have to be rangy. In Cincinnati, he doesn't have as good of a DL nor does he have good OLBs to help him out.

Brown, like most players the Bengals try to get in FA, is just a square peg trying to be put into a round hole. He's limited and being asked to do something he can't.

It's time to start putting some guys in and see what they're made of that's for sure. It might be the only thing exciting to watch the rest of the season.

They are both just plain awful in space. And to be honest not very good tacklers either.

Poor Lou has been dealt a horrible hand by this pathetic management team. Watching other games it's amazing what good LB play can do for a defense, and this team just has nothing, zero, zilch at that level. I didn't think it could get worse than last year but this year sets the bar to a different level of bad.

(10-07-2019, 10:37 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Last season was Brown's first season and he was actually a pretty darn good LB when in Buffalo, so I'm not sure why you were "done" with Brown before last season began?

Brown was able to be productive in Buffalo's downhill defensive scheme when he didn't have to be rangy. In Cincinnati, he doesn't have as good of a DL nor does he have good OLBs to help him out.

Brown, like most players the Bengals try to get in FA, is just a square peg trying to be put into a round hole. He's limited and being asked to do something he can't.

I thought it was obvious he would fail here and he has. He is a 2 down 'thumper' LB that is fast fading away in the NFL. Signing him was a mistake, signing him again was laughable. But since this team can't even draft a servicable LB you might as well sign a below average one. 

I've been asking for Vigil to be replaced for 2 years only to be told
I didnt know what I'm talking about

(10-07-2019, 10:29 AM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: Can we please start playing Mr. Pratt and Jordan Evans in the base packages??it's clear to me and everyone else around that this is clearly a lost season, Preston brown and nick vigil are not getting it done simple and plain..

Neither possess the football instincts necessary to be successful at the linebacker position and as long as we keep trotting these guys out there the rest of the defense will suffer for it..

When Pratt is in...I notice him being blocked 10 yards down field. He's not the answer at this point.

Jordan Evans is pretty terrible.

I do see them playing Reynolds some snaps too. He's been a career special teamer. So they are trying new things. They just don't work.

Germaine with the Tacky G (Gennifer Flowers, anyone) is terrible. Nick Vigil and Preston Brown are both better.

I do realize that's tantamount to winning the "Best Teeth" contest in a Kentucky Holler, but that's the current state of things.

(10-07-2019, 10:42 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: I thought it was obvious he would fail here and he has. He is a 2 down 'thumper' LB that is fast fading away in the NFL. Signing him was a mistake, signing him again was laughable. But since this team can't even draft a servicable LB you might as well sign a below average one. 

One thing I think was (or should have been) very obvious was that Marvin Lewis prioritized tackle statistics.
Preston Brown led the NFL in tackles his last year in BUF.
Marvin, just like Taylor, had to deal with a lack of a scouting department and not enough time to really deep dive into film on every player so he (likely) relied on past statistical production.
The Bengals FO also always seems to put a cap on the amount they will spend on an outside FA (I don't believe it's ever been more than $8 mill a year IIRC? - Glenn wasn't a FA so he doesn't count) so that also limits their prospects.

For the record, I didn't think Brown would "fail" in Cincinnati, but I knew his role should be limited due to his lack of range.

(10-07-2019, 10:55 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: When Pratt is in...I notice him being blocked 10 yards down field. He's not the answer at this point.

Jordan Evans is pretty terrible.

I do see them playing Reynolds some snaps too. He's been a career special teamer. So they are trying new things. They just don't work.

Pratt was in for 9 defensive snaps. He's been in 34 defensive snaps in the season.
Seems a little early to decide an answer on a guy who hasn't even played a full game's worth of snaps, don't you think?

(10-07-2019, 11:10 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Pratt was in for 9 defensive snaps. He's been in 34 defensive snaps in the season.
Seems a little early to decide an answer on a guy who hasn't even played a full game's worth of snaps, don't you think?

So the fact that he isn't playing more...would seem to indicate that the coaches think he's not better than what we have.

So either Pratt isn't ready? Or the coaches are terrible assessing who should play.

Usually when I notice 57 out there, he's being blocked 10 yards downfield nowhere near the play.

(10-07-2019, 12:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So the fact that he isn't playing more...would seem to indicate that the coaches think he's not better than what we have.

So either Pratt isn't ready? Or the coaches are terrible assessing who should play.

Usually when I notice 57 out there, he's being blocked 10 yards downfield nowhere near the play.

Have they shown any evidence that they're not? 

Lining up Shawn Williams as a third linebacker isn’t working either. When I wasn’t gagging over the stark incompetence of the offensive line I was retching over the linebacker play. I never thought I would say this but until Lou Anarumo has linebackers who don’t have to be timed with a sundial the Bengals need to run a 3-4 because two linebackers are getting beat worse than Adrian Peterson’s kid. I’m not even sure Cincinnati has the requisite personnel to run a 3-4 up front but this 4-2-5 is getting torched.

(10-07-2019, 12:35 PM)Aquapod770 Wrote: Have they shown any evidence that they're not? 

Precisely.

IF I were running the team, I'd be starting Price over MJ or atleast rotating them. Jerry over Smith.

Pratt over Brown or Vigil. I'd play Pratt and then rotate between the other 2.

Dumping the current scheme and using 3 LB would help some. Part of why we are getting eaten alive by outside runs is in this weird 5-2 the LBs are not in the usual OLB spots on the field, which means they can’t get to those edges in time. Put Brown at his MLB comfort spot and Vigil and Pratt (or Evans) in the two OLB spots.

(10-07-2019, 01:10 PM)Joelist Wrote: Dumping the current scheme and using 3 LB would help some. Part of why we are getting eaten alive by outside runs is in this weird 5-2 the LBs are not in the usual OLB spots on the field, which means they can’t get to those edges in time. Put Brown at his MLB comfort spot and Vigil and Pratt (or Evans) in the two OLB spots.

That's probably the quickest improvement. With 2 LB's you need fast ones that can cover. That's neither Brown nor Vigil.

(10-07-2019, 12:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So the fact that he isn't playing more...would seem to indicate that the coaches think he's not better than what we have.

So either Pratt isn't ready? Or the coaches are terrible assessing who should play.

Usually when I notice 57 out there, he's being blocked 10 yards downfield nowhere near the play.

Well we've seen who the coaches have chosen to actually put out there so they probably are not good at assessing who should play.
Michael Jordan - 33.3 PFF rating (29.4 pass, 40.8 run)
Preston Brown - 49.6 (49.8 run, 54.2 pass rush, 54.0 coverage)
Nick Vigil - 41.8 (51.5 run, 59.1 pass rush, 39.6 coverage)

Speaking of PFF...
Germaine Pratt - 60.6 (54.8 run, 55.2 pass rush, 68.7 coverage)
Billy Price - 50.0 (28.1 pass, 60.2 run)

So yes, I think this coaching staff is being stubborn with putting certain players out there. Given the terrible performance of Jordan, Brown, and Vigil, Pratt and Price deserve more playing time.

I think it the Scheme that Sweet Lou runs that makes players look bad. Brown needs a box. 5-1-5 or 5-2-4 or 4-2-5 does not work with the personnel. Dre absolutely is horrible in space. WJ3 has regressed and Vigil takes poor angles to the ball. I think the Backer coach and secondary coaches need to be re-evaluated at the end of year.

(10-07-2019, 01:19 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Well we've seen who the coaches have chosen to actually put out there so they probably are not good at assessing who should play.
Michael Jordan - 33.3 PFF rating (29.4 pass, 40.8 run)
Preston Brown - 49.6 (49.8 run, 54.2 pass rush, 54.0 coverage)
Nick Vigil - 41.8 (51.5 run, 59.1 pass rush, 39.6 coverage)

Speaking of PFF...
Germaine Pratt - 60.6 (54.8 run, 55.2 pass rush, 68.7 coverage)
Billy Price - 50.0 (28.1 pass, 60.2 run)

So yes, I think this coaching staff is being stubborn with putting certain players out there. Given the terrible performance of Jordan, Brown, and Vigil, Pratt and Price deserve more playing time.

It's interesting that Brown and Vigil's pass rush grades are their highest grades...because I just never see them pass rush.