(10-07-2019, 06:12 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I get I like Billings to but I'm not spending big money on a non pass rushing NT.

He has the skills to be an elite all-around NT. I don't think the Bengals have the staff to hone his skills though. We'll see. 

He's listed around 325-330. He looks a couple cheesburgers heavier than that. He could probably imporove his change of direction if he dropped about 20lbs. 

Keep in mind, the dude's only 24.

(10-07-2019, 06:19 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: You're not getting anything for Geno. Michael Bennett only managed to get a 5th RD pick for the eagles this off season.

Atkins is better than Bennett and 2 years younger.

(10-07-2019, 10:39 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Atkins is better than Bennett and 2 years younger.

There the same player... Beside the point I'm trading our best Defensive player a lot can happen in 3 years. Especially in this division.

(10-07-2019, 11:38 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: There the same player... Beside the point I'm trading our best Defensive player a lot can happen in 3 years. Especially in this division.

They're not the same player. Not even close. 

Geno has been in the top 5 in Pass Rush Productivity for the last 5 years. As a matter of fact, he's been top 5 every year except his injury year (2013 where he was 7th in a shortened year) and the following year when he was coming back from the injury. 

You know who hasn't been in the top 5 or anywhere close to it? Michael Bennett.  Aaron Donald is the only guy that can say he's in that same category as Geno, and he's not top 5 so far this year.

(10-07-2019, 04:51 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: This is true.  Drafts picks do not change anything unless you have a competent GM (Fire Tobin) and expand the draft personnel to NFL standards...

Only one guy gets the GM salary/title and it’s not Duke Tobin.

(10-08-2019, 12:01 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: They're not the same player. Not even close. 

Geno has been in the top 5 in Pass Rush Productivity for the last 5 years. As a matter of fact, he's been top 5 every year except his injury year (2013 where he was 7th in a shortened year) and the following year when he was coming back from the injury. 

You know who hasn't been in the top 5 or anywhere close to it? Michael Bennett.  Aaron Donald is the only guy that can say he's in that same category as Geno, and he's not top 5 so far this year.

1.) Michael Bennett is one of the best interior rushers in the NFL; the guy is an elite player.
2.) Why would trade that Geno if he is a top 5 guy at his position? We have 3 years left on his contract and he isn't expensive. 

(10-08-2019, 12:39 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 1.) Michael Bennett is one of the best interior rushers in the NFL; the guy is an elite player.
2.) Why would trade that Geno if he is a top 5 guy at his position? We have 3 years left on his contract and he isn't expensive. 

How am i supposed to take this conversation seriously when Bennett is a DE?

(10-08-2019, 01:03 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How am i supposed to take this conversation seriously when Bennett is a DE?

Yes he is listed as a DE but he does his damage most of the time inside at DT.

(10-08-2019, 01:52 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Yes he is listed as a DE but he does his damage most of the time inside at DT.

He takes a minimal amount of snaps in the middle.

This year out of 119 snaps, he's taken 28 at DT or NT.               24%
Last year out of 827 snaps, he took 45 at DT or NT.                    5%
The year before, out of 929 snaps, he took 137 at DT or NT.      15%
The year before, out of 663 snaps, he took 155 at DT or NT.      23%
The year before, out of 904 snaps, he took 230 at DT or NT.      25%
etc, etc.

So, in 5 years, he had a total of 3,442 snaps and took 595 in the middle.   17%

How is a guy going to do most of his damage in the middle and be elite when he takes 17% of his snaps there?

(10-08-2019, 08:45 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He takes a minimal amount of snaps in the middle.

This year out of 119 snaps, he's taken 28 at DT or NT.               24%
Last year out of 827 snaps, he took 45 at DT or NT.                    5%
The year before, out of 929 snaps, he took 137 at DT or NT.      15%
The year before, out of 663 snaps, he took 155 at DT or NT.      23%
The year before, out of 904 snaps, he took 230 at DT or NT.      25%
etc, etc.

So, in 5 years, he had a total of 3,442 snaps and took 595 in the middle.   17%

How is a guy going to do most of his damage in the middle and be elite when he takes 17% of his snaps there?

1.) He is a really good interior pass rusher over career.  He isn't used as much as he I thought he was but that doesn't mean he isn't one of the best as an interior Pass rusher. The guy is awfully good when he moves inside.
2.) According to PFF he has the third amount of edge pressures since 2014 the two in front of him are Mack & Miller. 
3.) The guy had an excellent season with 30 QB hits, 9 sacks, and 15 TFLs. Last season. So he is no chump. 
Bennett versatility makes him one hell of a talent and Game changer if he isnt worth more than a 5th Rd pick then I don't see how Geno would destroy that.
Anyways we have Geno for three more seasons at least and at Ann affordable price. Why trade him when he can help us. Even if we get a 2nd will be be as good as Geno?

(10-08-2019, 09:18 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 1.) He is a really good interior pass rusher over career.  He isn't used as much as he I thought he was but that doesn't mean he isn't one of the best as an interior Pass rusher. The guy is awfully good when he moves inside.
2.) According to PFF he has the third amount of edge pressures since 2014 the two in front of him are Mack & Miller. 
3.) The guy had an excellent season with 30 QB hits, 9 sacks, and 15 TFLs. Last season. So he is no chump. 
Bennett versatility makes him one hell of a talent and Game changer if he isnt worth more than a 5th Rd pick then I don't see how Geno would destroy that.
Anyways we have Geno for three more seasons at least and at Ann affordable price. Why trade him when he can help us. Even if we get a 2nd will be be as good as Geno?

Def not as good. You have to decide if keeping Geno is more beneficial than getting a pick for him and what that pick could do to to help another part of the team. Standing pat hasn't really worked for this team for umpteen number of years. They have a great need at several other positions and they're not going to start filling all those needs unless they have more picks/more cap space. They have plenty of fat to trim and trading some guys that have value helps the team in the long run when you add the fat trimming. 

Who is going to potentially last longer, Geno or a 2020 high round draft pick? I've been reading that his compensation could be a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2020 and possibly a late round pick in 2021. The price is obviously going to be driven by demand, so who knows how high it could go.

(10-08-2019, 12:39 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 1.) Michael Bennett is one of the best interior rushers in the NFL; the guy is an elite player.
2.) Why would trade that Geno if he is a top 5 guy at his position? We have 3 years left on his contract and he isn't expensive. 

I agree...that Geno is one Bengals I wouldn't trade in a rebuild...for the reasons you mention in point 2.

Plus, WR's decline faster than DT's generally.

(10-08-2019, 11:10 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Def not as good. You have to decide if keeping Geno is more beneficial than getting a pick for him and what that pick could do to to help another part of the team. Standing pat hasn't really worked for this team for umpteen number of years. They have a great need at several other positions and they're not going to start filling all those needs unless they have more picks/more cap space. They have plenty of fat to trim and trading some guys that have value helps the team in the long run when you add the fat trimming. 

Who is going to potentially last longer, Geno or a 2020 high round draft pick? I've been reading that his compensation could be a 2nd or 3rd round pick in 2020 and possibly a late round pick in 2021. The price is obviously going to be driven by demand, so who knows how high it could go.

The thing is, our REALLY good players like AJ and Geno...say we get a late 1st for both...odds are we won't land players anywhere near their caliber.

The Browns traded Julio Jones to Atlanta for 2 1sts, a 2nd, and a bunch of other picks. The Bengals presumably got that offer.

The guys the Browns drafted turned out nowhere near as good as Julio...and some were big names like Trent Richardson.

I feel like, management will ride this out and attribute this year to a new HC...and injuries.

I also feel like a full rebuild would be Cleveland Browns-esque where we win 3-4 years for half a decade.

(10-07-2019, 10:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He has the skills to be an elite all-around NT. I don't think the Bengals have the staff to hone his skills though. We'll see. 

He's listed around 325-330. He looks a couple cheesburgers heavier than that. He could probably imporove his change of direction if he dropped about 20lbs. 

Keep in mind, the dude's only 24.

You have to sign him.  This team has drafted poorly for several years.  Billings is one of the few young guys here that is clearly a guy you want to build around.  If you look hard at the roster, it's tough to find many guys his age that have developed into the kind of player he has that are under 30.  

I'd look to build around Billings, Hubbard, Jackson, and Boyd.  Those are the 4 that should be on the roster in the time it will take them to become respectable again.