(10-27-2019, 09:03 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Carson wasn't going to play for the Bengals once he realized Mike Brown had been blowing smoke up his butt. He definitely took his Bengals ball and went home, never to play with the Bengals again. 

I guess I don't see how the "took the ball and went home" thing applies here.  It's like he took his ball and went to play somewhere else.

(10-27-2019, 09:13 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I guess I don't see how the "took the ball and went home" thing applies here.  It's like he took his ball and went to play somewhere else.

Did he play for the Bengals in 2011?

Was he under contract to play for the Bengals in 2011?

Would he have played for any other team if Mike Brown had not agreed to trade him?

(10-27-2019, 09:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you are saying our run game and defense are ranked 32nd because of Dalton?

Care to explain how? 

If a QB cannot finish off drives resulting in TD or at the very least a long drive that ends in a FG which eats up clock,then.yes he can affect a defense 
A QB that countiously goes 3 and out it eventually wears down a defense
By the early stages of the 2nd half the defense is out of gas 
If a QB cannot hit big pass plays downfield then the defense 
Ends up.condensing everything and suffocating the running game 

(10-27-2019, 09:19 PM)impactplaya Wrote: If a QB cannot finish off drives resulting in TD or at the very least a long drive that ends in a FG which eats up clock,then.yes he can affect a defense 
A QB that countiously goes 3 and out it eventually wears down a defense
By the early stages of the 2nd half the defense is out of gas 
If a QB cannot hit big pass plays downfield then the defense 
Ends up.condensing everything and suffocating the running game 

Folks that know the game understand this, hell Fred probably understands it. There's a reason the top 10 and 13 of 15 of the highest played players are QBs. Most know they have quite the impact on the team's overall success. 

(10-27-2019, 09:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks that know the game understand this, hell Fred probably understands it. There's a reason the top 10 and 13 of 15 of the highest played players are QBs. Most know they have quite the impact on the team's overall success. 

We didn't lose to the Rams because of Dalton. We do lose some games because of Dalton. We lose games because of playcalling.

Would an elite QB be like deodorant and cover up this teams deficiencies? Possibly, but they have to develop into an elite QB.

I have 0 faith in ZT and company developing a QB and surrounding them with talent.

How bad is that?

(10-27-2019, 09:36 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We didn't lose to the Rams because of Dalton. We do lose some games because of Dalton. We lose games because of playcalling.

Would an elite QB be like deodorant and cover up this teams deficiencies? Possibly, but they have to develop into an elite QB.

I have 0 faith in ZT and company developing a QB and surrounding them with talent.

How bad is that?

No doubt Andy's 80ish passer rating should have been enough to get us to the finish line this week, but I wasn't just talking about the week. I was talking about the year as a whole and the last couple. 

As to faith in Doogie: I'm willing to give him a little more leash than I am a 9 year QB who has proved to be average at best throughout his career.

(10-27-2019, 09:36 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We didn't lose to the Rams because of Dalton. We do lose some games because of Dalton. We lose games because of playcalling.

Would an elite QB be like deodorant and cover up this teams deficiencies? Possibly, but they have to develop into an elite QB.

I have 0 faith in ZT and company developing a QB and surrounding them with talent.

How bad is that?

It's the chicken or egg thing?

Does Dalton limit what ZT can design or does ZT limit what Dalton can do?

(10-27-2019, 09:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt Andy's 80ish passer rating should have been enough to get us to the finish line this week, but I wasn't just talking about the week. I was talking about the year as a whole and the last couple. 

As to faith in Doogie: I'm willing to give him a little more leash than I am a 9 year QB who has proved to be average at best throughout his career.

Logic says to bench Dalton, but logic also says ZT was going to fail and that Ryan Finley will also fare exceedingly poorly as the QB of this team.  Sadly, logic is not the friend of the Bengals this year...perhaps that is why we were all so puffed up on hope and happy thoughts and fairy dust all off-season.

A QB coach as our HC?  Holy crap....that's gonna be awesome!  What?!  His resume sucks?!  NIIIICE!!!!!  What?!  He's bringing a bunch of crappy coaches who aren't fit to hold their lofty positions with him!?  SCOOOOREEE!!!  LOOOK OUT NFL!

(10-27-2019, 09:48 PM)impactplaya Wrote: It's the chicken or egg thing?

Does Dalton limit what ZT can design or does ZT limit what Dalton can do?

Not to sound like the leader of the Dalton fan club, but we've seen Dalton sometimes not suck without ZT but we've never seen ZT win as a HC and he wasn't exactly gangbusters in his prior positions in his career.

So as much as I wish we kept Palmer in 2011 I'm going to say in all fairness Dalton has faded but he should be better than this.  ZT is in over his head and he needs a real OC and a real DC to bail his ass out.

(10-27-2019, 09:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt Andy's 80ish passer rating should have been enough to get us to the finish line this week, but I wasn't just talking about the week. I was talking about the year as a whole and the last couple. 

As to faith in Doogie: I'm willing to give him a little more leash than I am a 9 year QB who has proved to be average at best throughout his career.

1,000 %

(10-27-2019, 09:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to faith in Doogie: I'm willing to give him a little more leash than I am a 9 year QB who has proved to be average at best throughout his career.

Doogie has never done anything.

And anyone who claims Dalton was just average when he was at his best does not know much about NFL football.

The amount of leash you give is clearly based on personal animus instead of any kind of logic.

(10-27-2019, 09:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Doogie has never done anything.

And anyone who claims Dalton was just average when he was at his best does not know much about NFL football.

I was at the games in 2015, Fred. I heard the chants of “MVP! MVP!” I even joined in.

(10-27-2019, 09:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Doogie has never done anything.

And anyone who claims Dalton was just average when he was at his best does not know much about NFL football.

The amount of leash you give is clearly based on personal animus instead of any kind of logic.

Okey Dokey

(10-27-2019, 09:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Logic says to bench Dalton, but logic also says ZT was going to fail and that Ryan Finley will also fare exceedingly poorly as the QB of this team.  Sadly, logic is not the friend of the Bengals this year...perhaps that is why we were all so puffed up on hope and happy thoughts and fairy dust all off-season.

A QB coach as our HC?  Holy crap....that's gonna be awesome!  What?!  His resume sucks?!  NIIIICE!!!!!  What?!  He's bringing a bunch of crappy coaches who aren't fit to hold their lofty positions with him!?  SCOOOOREEE!!!  LOOOK OUT NFL!

I totally get what you're saying and you're probably right. But this team is as dead as Julius Caesar with Dalton at the helm !

(10-27-2019, 10:04 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I totally get what you're saying and you're probably right. But this team is as dead as Julius Caesar with Dalton at the helm !

You have to ask yourself: How many teams in the NFL that were 0-8 with a 9 year vet QB currently rated 28/29 in the league wouldn't try something else. 

Worst case: Finley sux and we go QB early in the draft next year,

Best case: Finley shows something and we can look to put pieces around him. 

(10-27-2019, 10:04 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I totally get what you're saying and you're probably right. But this team is as dead as Julius Caesar with Dalton at the helm !

Yep, you don't get to be 0-8 because only a few things are wrong or you have bad luck or even because you had bad luck with injuries.  0-8 is a top to bottom crap fest and I get the idea of replacing a QB because he's the most impactful, but my stance is that putting Finley out there and Finley flopping gets a Dalton extension written up faster than Dalton stinking it up for the rest of the year does.

We might need to play the long game on this one.

(10-27-2019, 10:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You have to ask yourself: How many teams in the NFL that were 0-8 with a 9 year vet QB currently rated 28/29 in the league wouldn't try something else. 

Worst case: Finley sux and we go QB early in the draft next year,

Best case: Finley shows something and we can look to put pieces around him. 

Worst case:  Finley sucks and ZT and/or MB run back to Dalton and double down on him and declare him a key piece to build around ala AJ Green.

So is tomorrow the big day for trades if any happen?

Andy Dalton has never been average. He has always been below average. You have to compare the qb's rating with the talent he is surrounded with. If a qb is above the talent he's surrounded with then he's above average, if he's the same he's average, and if he's below that talent then hes below average.

In Dalton's peak years he averaged around 17th in the league in qb rating. That is if you count regular season and playoff games the same, which is nonsense because playoffs are worth 4 times as much as regular season games, but even giving Dalton a huge break and counting them the same he averaged around 17th in qb rating.

Now during those peaks years he had top 10 talent surrounding him; Therefor, he was below average even in his peak years regardless if his qb rating might have given the illusion he was average.

Now an average qb with all that talent, Whitworth , Boling, Zietler, Green ,Smith, Eifert, Sanu, Jones and Bernard would have been a perennial top 10 qb and won a few playoff games. We know that didn't happen with below average Andy.

You can even say that Dalton, in his peak season of 2015, was slightly below average because he had the top talent in the league surrounding him that year and he still finished only 2nd in qb rating.

Now an elite qb like Russel Wilson, who arguably had the worst offensive line I've ever seen for a few seasons early in his career, and no threat even close to Green, was still putting up huge numbers and was consistently in the top 10 in the league in qb ratings.

If Taylor ready to address the fact that he's in way over his head with play-calling? When's that topic getting brought up?

Think we need to see what we have in Finley, been saying this for weeks...