(11-08-2019, 11:59 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Andy Dalton is now a backup QB for an 0-8 team. And it’s KILLING some you guys lol

Sounds like yall appreciate 0-8 over 10-6/12-4.

But at least some people are happy.

Me, I miss winning Sundays. More than some I guess. I certainly won't be taking them for granted no time soon.

(11-08-2019, 12:00 PM)Synric Wrote: Sounds like it's making you all warm and fuzzy...

Well, I’m interested in a Bengals game again for the first time in what feels like an eternity.

(11-08-2019, 12:03 PM)jj22 Wrote: Sounds like yall appreciate 0-8 over 10-6/12-4.

But at least some people are happy.

Me, I miss winning Sundays. More than some I guess. I certainly won't be taking them for granted no time soon.

I was tired of mediocrity. Maybe finally bottoming out is what we needed.

(11-08-2019, 11:23 AM)jj22 Wrote: Really? When did Dalton have a run game or running attack better than Rudi/Perry? - In 2014. The Bengals rushed for over 2100 yards and 19 touchdowns. This is better than any single rushing attack that Palmer had.

What wide receiver trio was better than Ocho, Housh, Henry etc? - He hasn't. AJ, Marvin and Sanu are nothing to sneeze at, but Palmer had better receivers. However, Dalton has had better tight ends.

The Oline? When did he have a better center/RT/LT combo? - Specifically that combo, Dalton hasn't. Dalton has had a better LT, LG and RG combo, however. He has typically had below average centers and average right tackles.

When did he have a rookie OC from the arena league? - Brat was better than Gruden. He also had more to work with. Gruden took over a team full of rookie/young talent. By the third year that the core was together, Gruden put together a top 10 offense. The point still stands that Brat was better.

Defense. Let's talk Defense. - Dalton has had the better defenses and that is absolutely no question. Dalton has had three defenses in the top 10 with 2015 being #11. Palmer had one defense in the top 10, in 2009. Dalton has had defenses in the top 10 for sacks four times including #11 in 2017. Palmer had zero such defenses. Dalton has had four defenses in the top 10 in interceptions. Palmer had five defenses. 

When did Dalton have probowl corners with 10+ interceptions? - Palmer had the better individual corners.

When has the DLine rotation been better than the Fanene/Rucker rotation that spearheaded those top 10 runs? - Pretty much throughout the entirety of Dalton's career. That is why Dalton has had better defenses and better pass-rushing defenses. Dalton has also had better rush defenses. Dalton had three top 10 rush defenses. Palmer had one.

Lb's. Do we really want to go there outside of Burfict? - Thomas Howard and AJ Hawk were fine linebackers to go along with Burfict. Palmer didn't have some stud LBing corp. He had Dhani Jones who was good, but Burfict was better than Dhani. Landon Johnson was a legitimately good backer. Palmer had the better corps but it's not like he was working with some all-decade crew. Dalton still had the better defenses.

The Palmer era had far more established talent and free agent signings. Indisputable. But if you choosing A then just say so. Be proud of it. Own it.

Dalton had 3 bad seasons in 9 years not including last year when they were on fire on offense and 5-3 before injuries hit.

You aren't going to find a 9 year vet with that record in free agency very often. And with only 3 other teams (maybe 4) with better runs in the league, you won't find many other fanbase turning their nose up to it either.

Answers in the quoted, bolded.

(11-08-2019, 11:56 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Palmer’s teams were NOT more talented. Nobody and I mean NOBODY was talking about those teams having one of the deepest rosters like they did the 13-15 teams.

Palmer's teams were every bit as talented as the '13-'15 teams.

(11-08-2019, 12:18 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I was tired of mediocrity. Maybe finally bottoming out is what we needed.

I just don't know that we've bottomed out. I mean 0-8 is as bad as it gets, but IF AJ leaves. Geno keeps declining. Eifert.

We don't know how Finley will play. People assume we'll get what we saw in preseason, but a guy like Rudolph in Pittsburgh threw the ball very well in preseason...and as a starter he throws a bunch of 4 yard passes. That's behind a good line. Here who knows?

(11-08-2019, 12:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Palmer's teams were every bit as talented as the '13-'15 teams.

On offense atleast. Didn't we have a Top 5 offense some of Palmers years?

The offense was probably better. The defense worse.

13-15 we were fairly balanced, but our defense was really good.

(11-08-2019, 12:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Palmer's teams were every bit as talented as the '13-'15 teams.

Other than Leon Hall, and JJ who did Palmer have on defense that can compare to Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Vontaze Burfict, Reggie Nelson, Pacman Jones? Maybe throw in Deltha O’Neal, but he really only had one remarkable year. All those other guys were good-great for multiple years.

(11-08-2019, 11:58 AM)jj22 Wrote: Palmer was a far superior talent at QB yes. 1st overall pick prospect. Was he a better QB tho? That's debatable. Qb'ing is more than arm strength and athleticism (obviously given it only got us to the playoffs 2wice out of 7 years, with equal meltdowns once we got there).

I'd still chose B. As majority of unbiased non-Bengals fans would.

Bottom line, I firmly believe the Dalton led Bengals teams would have at least been equally as good with Palmer. Maybe even better. Dalton was never the main reason this team made the playoffs five years in a row. I believe a lot of that credit has to go to the coordinators (Jay and Hue were no slouches, despite what you may believe) , and the players. You make it sound like we had next to nobody around Dalton the first five years. AJ, Whitworth, Zeitler, Sanu, Marvin Jones, Eifert, Boling, who am I forgetting? Make no mistake about it, Dalton has had a lot of help over the years.

Obviously we’ll never know for sure, but the fact of the matter is Palmer was gone before he played with some of the best Bengal teams ever.

(11-08-2019, 12:24 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: On offense atleast. Didn't we have a Top 5 offense some of Palmers years?

The offense was probably better. The defense worse.

13-15 we were fairly balanced, but our defense was really good.

Key word...balanced. And it’s not particularly close.

(11-08-2019, 12:32 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Other than Leon Hall, and JJ who did Palmer have on defense that can compare to Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, Vontaze Burfict, Reggie Nelson, Pacman Jones? Maybe throw in Deltha O’Neal, but he really only had one remarkable year. All those other guys were good-great for multiple years.

Palmers best years in Cincy were hampered by some of the worst defenses in the league under Chuck Bresnahan. They never finished better than 26th overall under Bresnahan.

(11-08-2019, 12:21 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Answers in the quoted, bolded.

Great post. Thanks for doing the work.

(11-08-2019, 12:23 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I just don't know that we've bottomed out. I mean 0-8 is as bad as it gets, but IF AJ leaves. Geno keeps declining. Eifert.

We don't know how Finley will play. People assume we'll get what we saw in preseason, but a guy like Rudolph in Pittsburgh threw the ball very well in preseason...and as a starter he throws a bunch of 4 yard passes. That's behind a good line. Here who knows?

Finley was dinking and dunking during the preseason. The guy's 6'3" and weighs 185. People just got all excited about him standing tall, and moving in the pocket against guys who aren't on rosters anymore, or don't play much. He's gonna get the Ravens starting defense now... This will probably be ugly.

(11-08-2019, 12:18 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I was tired of mediocrity. Maybe finally bottoming out is what we needed.

I was right there with you Nicomo. I really was.

I just forgot (or blocked out) the ineptness of a Marvinless Bengals. And now that I remember...... I'm not sure I'll live to see another winning season. And we likely won't for decades unless we can find another HC that can work under these conditions.

Feel like I am going in a circle here.

"Dalton is not the only reason the Bengals are losing.  They have the 32nd ranked defense, 32nd ranked running game, and pass protection that is allowing the third most sacks n the league"

"HA HA.  Look at the Dalton Gang.  Always making excuses for him.  They always have an explanation for everything."

"Well Dalton has won at a higher percentage than any other QB under Mike Brown like Carson Palmer"

"Carson had a weaker defense.  It wasn't his fault."

(11-08-2019, 11:36 AM)jj22 Wrote: You aren't going to find many other people letting go of those glory days for 0-8 seasons.

When the new QB leads us to 5 playoff seasons in 9 years then sure it'll happen.

Until then, don't you miss winning?

I guess 12th out of 32 for five years in a row is better than 32nd for one year but there is a possibility to be better. I guess you come from the participation trophy generation but from where I sit 12th is still a loser.


  

(11-08-2019, 12:49 PM)Jason Wrote:  People just got all excited about him standing tall, and moving in the pocket against guys who aren't on rosters anymore, or don't play much. He's gonna get the Ravens starting defense now...  

Yeah but he only had a second string o-line.... Watch him with the big boys blocking for him. He will murder the Ravens.

(11-08-2019, 02:03 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: I guess 12th out of 32 for five years in a row is better than 32nd for one year but there is a possibility to be better. I guess you come from the participation trophy generation but from where I sit 12th is still a loser.


  

I guess you are young and don't remember the pre Marvin era and think there's a likelihood to be better.

This is more than likely as good as it gets.

(11-08-2019, 11:17 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I have seen you say this a lot. I think you are partly correct. If your scouting department is not scouting specific players for a specific system and just drafting talent, they likely will fail.

The Steeler's are a classic example. They know their system, they know the player that need in their system to make not only the player succeed, but the team.

Then, they go out and draft, trade or add FA's. to fit the team system, grab guys who fit in their mold.

The Pats do the same. Yes, they both have had HOF QB's at the head, one has a HOF coach, the other had an average to good coach (Tomlin) in my opinion, but Tomlin just came in and continued the Steeler's system with a few tweaks.

100%.

We have had 32 draft picks in the last 3 years yet our cupboards are bare. We have never developed a defined system in the Mikey timeline and never drafted to that system. It is simply a year to year fill the roster with whomever we drafted approach. 

(11-08-2019, 02:09 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Yeah but he only had a second string o-line.... Watch him with the big boys blocking for him. He will murder the Ravens.

You do realize we are on like our 5th string Oline.....

But I'm done raining on your parade. Chat with you Monday. Hopefully you still have this energy, and NO excuses for Finley.