(11-23-2019, 10:09 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I like him just fine, even noted that he's a great player.  He's a superstar on my favorite CFB team, what more can I say?  I just think that the media hype has driven his draft stock and expectations up higher than the young man may be able to deliver in the NFL.  

The consideration  of taking Chase Young puts the Bengals in a spot where they will have to choose between a franchise QB or a marquise pass rusher.  When you look at a guy like Curtis Weaver, you're getting a very comparable product AND still able to take your franchise QB at the top of the draft.

But that’s my point. I don’t see no stud #1 lock qb. I would rather have young in 1 and fromm in 2. Young is better than either bosa, bettter than Garrett, better than Clowney, etc etc. I think he’s a 12-15 sack a year guy immoderately. Just think he would be at about let’s say 22 sacks right now and about 30 tfl if he hadn’t gotten suspended. We need this guy. It’s a rebuild.

I'd be on board with Young at #1 overall if that happens, but it would be great to trade down a spot or so and still land him. There's no such thing as a sure thing, but he's probably closer to that than any other player in the upcoming draft.

And by the way, Hugh Green is probably the most dominant defensive player in college football history. Depending on the source, he amassed 49 or 53 sacks between 1977-1980- in an era when running the ball was more the norm.

(11-23-2019, 08:39 PM)ElkValleyBengal Wrote: I'd be on board with Young at #1 overall if that happens, but it would be great to trade down a spot or so and still land him.  There's no such thing as a sure thing, but he's probably  closer to that than any other player in the upcoming draft.

And by the way, Hugh Green is probably the most dominant defensive player in college football history.  Depending on the source,  he amassed 49 or 53 sacks between 1977-1980- in an era when running the ball was more the norm.

All that hype in college, and his best was 7.5 sacks in a season as a pro.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GreeHu00.htm

(11-23-2019, 08:22 PM)Jpoore Wrote: But that’s my point. I don’t see no stud #1 lock qb. I would rather have young in 1 and fromm in 2. Young is better than either bosa, bettter than Garrett, better than Clowney, etc etc. I think he’s a 12-15 sack a year guy immoderately. Just think he would be at about let’s say 22 sacks right now and about 30 tfl if he hadn’t gotten suspended. We need this guy. It’s a rebuild.

Perhaps you don't see any bonafide franchise QBs, because you don't want to see any franchise QBs?  

(11-23-2019, 08:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: All that hype in college, and his best was 7.5 sacks in a season as a pro.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GreeHu00.htm

Unfortunately for him he was a 225 pound DE in college, so he switched to LB in the NFL.   From memory he was a solid to good pro,  but nowhere near the force he was at Pitt obviously. 

Speaking of LB, Penn State's Micah Parsons would look nice in black and orange, but he's only a true sophomore I believe.

(11-23-2019, 08:50 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Perhaps you don't see any bonafide franchise QBs, because you don't want to see any franchise QBs?  

I see franchise qbs. Yes. If I’m picking #1 overall I want that Peyton Manning, Andrew luck, can newton, the bonafide got it all type of players. There isn’t one here besides tua imo and he’s got massive injury issues. Herbert way to inconsistent, and burrow has everything mentally but he’s better than the sum of his parts.. but see my point is I see fromm as a franchise level qb as well. And he’s gonna fall much farther. Or u get a absolute stud at lber to pair with young. And get qb next year. It all depends. It’s a lot of guessing right now.

(11-24-2019, 01:11 AM)Jpoore Wrote: I see franchise qbs. Yes. If I’m picking #1 overall I want that Peyton Manning, Andrew luck, can newton, the bonafide got it all type of players. There isn’t one here besides tua imo and he’s got massive injury issues. Herbert way to inconsistent, and burrow has everything mentally but he’s better than the sum of his parts..  but see my point is I see fromm as a franchise level qb as well. And he’s gonna fall much farther. Or u get a absolute stud at lber to pair with young. And get qb next year. It all depends. It’s a lot of guessing right now.

Says the guy that pushed Haskins as #1 overall....your colors are showing.

(11-24-2019, 01:11 AM)Jpoore Wrote: I see franchise qbs. Yes. If I’m picking #1 overall I want that Peyton Manning, Andrew luck, can newton, the bonafide got it all type of players. There isn’t one here besides tua imo and he’s got massive injury issues. Herbert way to inconsistent, and burrow has everything mentally but he’s better than the sum of his parts..  but see my point is I see fromm as a franchise level qb as well. And he’s gonna fall much farther. Or u get a absolute stud at lber to pair with young. And get qb next year. It all depends. It’s a lot of guessing right now.

Umm, what??  Fromm has more losses in games that he should have won, than Joe.  I'm not sure what sort of "QB in the 2nd round" glasses that you are wearing, but Jake Fromm is essentially Andy Dalton in both stature and game.  I thought that the objective of having the top pick was to get the player who will transform your franchise the most?  A DE won't win you titles, but a QB might.

(11-23-2019, 08:50 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Perhaps you don't see any bonafide franchise QBs, because you don't want to see any franchise QBs?  

About the only thing to be hesitant on with Burrow is he hasn't performed like this for more than one season.
About the only thing to be hesitant on with Tagovailoa is his injury history.

If you have confidence Burrow isn't a one-year wonder and you think Tagovailoa can overcome his college injuries, both have the talent to be bona-fide franchise QBs.

The other QBs all have definite areas of improvement though and I have my doubts of them becoming franchise QBs.

(11-24-2019, 01:29 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Umm, what??  Fromm has more losses in games that he should have won, than Joe.  I'm not sure what sort of "QB in the 2nd round" glasses that you are wearing, but Jake Fromm is essentially Andy Dalton in both stature and game.  I thought that the objective of having the top pick was to get the player who will transform your franchise the most?  A DE won't win you titles, but a QB might.

Now slow down a second on that. Jake Fromm is a 3 year starter with 40 games under his belt (including as a true freshman) and boasts a 34-6 (85% winning) record in those games. Joe has 25 games under his belt and is 21-4 (84% winning) with his first start not coming until he was a red shirt JR. Also, Joe Burrow is throwing to two sure fire NFL WR's right now where as Fromm is breaking in new receivers this year for the first time in his career. The Jake Fromm is Dalton comparisons probably need to die, as the more I watch the less and less similar they are. With that said I think Fromm ends up in the 20's as an heir to one of the aging QB's hanging around. I could actually see him going to LAC and taking over immediately as I think they part ways with Rivers after the season.

Don't want to hijack whatever this is, but I am going to be battling back the Jake Fromm is Andy Dalton narrative for the next few months so figured I'd start now.

(11-25-2019, 04:38 PM)Au165 Wrote: Now slow down a second on that. Jake Fromm is a 3 year starter with 40 games under his belt (including as a true freshman) and boasts a 34-6 (85% winning) record in those games. Joe has 25 games under his belt and is 21-4 (84% winning) with his first start not coming until he was a red shirt JR. Also, Joe Burrow is throwing to two sure fire NFL WR's right now where as Fromm is breaking in new receivers this year for the first time in his career. The Jake Fromm is Dalton comparisons probably need to die, as the more I watch the less and less similar they are. With that said I think Fromm ends up in the 20's as an heir to one of the aging QB's hanging around. I could actually see him going to LAC and taking over immediately as I think they part ways with Rivers after the season.

Don't want to hijack whatever this is, but I am going to be battling back the Jake Fromm is Andy Dalton narrative for the next few months so figured I'd start now.

Fair enough, it just seems like every season Fromm has been blessed with these supremely talent laden teams, but not able to knock off the bully on the block.  However, the season isn't quite over yet, and Fromm still has that opportunity to shine on the largest college stage.

Fromm might have some of the worst offensive coaching in major CFB. It wouldn't surprise me if he looked better in the pros than he did in college.

(11-25-2019, 04:38 PM)Au165 Wrote: Now slow down a second on that. Jake Fromm is a 3 year starter with 40 games under his belt (including as a true freshman) and boasts a 34-6 (85% winning) record in those games. Joe has 25 games under his belt and is 21-4 (84% winning) with his first start not coming until he was a red shirt JR. Also, Joe Burrow is throwing to two sure fire NFL WR's right now where as Fromm is breaking in new receivers this year for the first time in his career. The Jake Fromm is Dalton comparisons probably need to die, as the more I watch the less and less similar they are. With that said I think Fromm ends up in the 20's as an heir to one of the aging QB's hanging around. I could actually see him going to LAC and taking over immediately as I think they part ways with Rivers after the season.

Don't want to hijack whatever this is, but I am going to be battling back the Jake Fromm is Andy Dalton narrative for the next few months so figured I'd start now.

LAC will draft Hurts I would guess.  

The Fromm Dalton comparison is adequate in that neither is mobile and are considered game managers that cannot put the team on their back and win.  Dalton and Fromm need a strong cast to succeed.  With that said, I see Fromm as more talented compared to Dalton.  He seems to be more accurate but looking back at Dalton's college performance, they are similar.  Fromm is competing in the SEC against better competition but I could see Fromm dropping to the second round if he declares.  I think Fromm should stay another year to develop.  Fromm is a solid albeit unspectacular prospect.  

(11-24-2019, 01:15 AM)Synric Wrote: Says the guy that pushed Haskins as #1 overall....your colors are showing.

Haskins has all the talent in the world(something burrow dosent have) also burrow is a former buckeye so if my colors were showing then I would say he’s great. Burrow dosent have a great arm, but his mental iq is very high. He’s also playing in the perfect system Tailored to fit him.

(11-24-2019, 01:29 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Umm, what??  Fromm has more losses in games that he should have won, than Joe.  I'm not sure what sort of "QB in the 2nd round" glasses that you are wearing, but Jake Fromm is essentially Andy Dalton in both stature and game.  I thought that the objective of having the top pick was to get the player who will transform your franchise the most?  A DE won't win you titles, but a QB might.

Really? So a qb won the eagles pats Super Bowl? And why did the giants win a super bow? Elite dline. Top teams in nfl all have elite dlines. Chase young would guarentee us 2 more possessions a game.

(11-25-2019, 04:27 PM)ochocincos Wrote: About the only thing to be hesitant on with Burrow is he hasn't performed like this for more than one season.
About the only thing to be hesitant on with Tagovailoa is his injury history.

If you have confidence Burrow isn't a one-year wonder and you think Tagovailoa can overcome his college injuries, both have the talent to be bona-fide franchise QBs.

The other QBs all have definite areas of improvement though and I have my doubts of them becoming franchise QBs.

Burrows less than optimal physical traits worry me.

(11-25-2019, 07:19 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: LAC will draft Hurts I would guess.  

The Fromm Dalton comparison is adequate in that neither is mobile and are considered game managers that cannot put the team on their back and win.  Dalton and Fromm need a strong cast to succeed.  With that said, I see Fromm as more talented compared to Dalton.  He seems to be more accurate but looking back at Dalton's college performance, they are similar.  Fromm is competing in the SEC against better competition but I could see Fromm dropping to the second round if he declares.  I think Fromm should stay another year to develop.  Fromm is a solid albeit unspectacular prospect.  

Hurts is a late day 2 early day 3 prospect. People wanting the next Lamar Jackson may drive him up, but he isn't that guy and will struggle to complete passes in tight windows and run in the pros.

Again, an evaluation goes way beyond that. Dalton was running the spread before a lot of the current NFL crop were but From is running an offense you will see every Sunday. Fromm is far more accurate in an offense that runs far less screens in a conference that is far superior, really the comparison is lazy and I'll admit I fell in to it before I started watching a lot of Fromm tape. 

Fromm will end up QB 3 when it's all said and done and go in the 1st round. 

(11-26-2019, 09:03 AM)Au165 Wrote: Hurts is a late day 2 early day 3 prospect. People wanting the next Lamar Jackson may drive him up, but he isn't that guy and will struggle to complete passes in tight windows and run in the pros.

Again, an evaluation goes way beyond that. Dalton was running the spread before a lot of the current NFL crop were but From is running an offense you will see every Sunday. Fromm is far more accurate in an offense that runs far less screens in a conference that is far superior, really the comparison is lazy and I'll admit I fell in to it before I started watching a lot of Fromm tape. 

Fromm will end up QB 3 when it's all said and done and go in the 1st round. 

Oh yes Fromm is a mid to late 1st round pick all day. Perhaps even higher depending on how things play out by the spring ?

(11-26-2019, 10:11 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Oh yes Fromm is a mid to late 1st round pick all day. Perhaps even higher depending on how things play out by the spring ?

Maybe, a lot of it has to do with who is where. I think on the back side of the top 10 there are limited teams looking QB. There is a nice run in the early teens into the early 20's. I think Tua stays QB 1/2 because people have drooled over him so long it will be hard to fall out of love. If there is a run on QB's though then I could see him climbing as it's happened before. 

(11-26-2019, 01:00 AM)Jpoore Wrote: Haskins has all the talent in the world(something burrow dosent have) also burrow is a former buckeye so if my colors were showing then I would say he’s great.  Burrow dosent have a great arm, but his mental iq is very high. He’s also playing in the perfect system Tailored to fit him.
Really? So a qb won the eagles pats Super Bowl? And why did the giants win a super bow? Elite dline. Top teams in nfl all have elite dlines. Chase young would guarentee us 2 more possessions a game.

Burrows less than optimal physical traits worry me.

"Less than optimal" doesn't mean bad. From the games I've watched, he has enough arm to throw deep accurately and good enough mobility to extend the play and also gain some yards on the ground.

And people have to consider this: Is Burrow better than the QBs next year? I'd argue yes aside from maybe Trevor Lawrence (and Tua if he returns to college for another year). Before anyone says Justin Fields, Fields only has 2350 yards on the season in 11 games. Burrow has 4000 in the same number of games. Unless Fields takes another step like Burrow did this year, Fields isn't on the same level.

If the Bengals get Chase Young and actually upgrade the OL, there's a decent chance they don't get the 1st overall pick next year and miss out on the top QB prospect, so they should probably take advantage of such a high pick this year while they can. A good pass rusher can be found much easier in the draft.

(11-26-2019, 10:54 AM)Au165 Wrote: Maybe, a lot of it has to do with who is where. I think on the back side of the top 10 there are limited teams looking QB. There is a nice run in the early teens into the early 20's. I think Tua stays QB 1/2 because people have drooled over him so long it will be hard to fall out of love. If there is a run on QB's though then I could see him climbing as it's happened before. 

Yep

You just never know who's going to get hurt, who's going to retire, who's going to get a jump on a replacement as you said. Chargers are good candidate as has been said, can Brady really last forever ? Patriots stay at the top because they're proactive. Saints ? And who the hell knows what Redskins will do ? Just to name a few. And then there's about always a guy who's draft stock takes a big jump at the combine. And some who fall.



Just a ton of stuff changes from end of season to draft, usually.