(11-29-2019, 12:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The QB who can win without talent around him is a myth.

Drew Brees had 4 losing seasons in 5 years ('12-'16)

Aaron Rodgers was 10-12-1 over the last two seasons.

Agreed... In my lifetime, the two closest QBs to that mythical status were Andrew Luck and Dan Marino. Luck ended up broken because of it.

Even then... There was some talent around them though.

(11-29-2019, 12:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The QB who can win without talent around him is a myth.

Drew Brees had 4 losing seasons in 5 years ('12-'16)

Aaron Rodgers was 10-12-1 over the last two seasons.

Your post reminds me of Manning — Archie Manning. At Ole Miss he was an amazing quarterback who finished in the top four in Heisman Trophy voting twice — but after being drafted by the Saints the team did nothing to build around him. In the ten years Archie played in New Orleans, he was sacked 337 times. That’s not good especially when we remember the NFL played 14 game seasons back then and the Saints’ best record while Manning was under center was 0.500.

If Archie Manning had been drafted by almost any other team he would be a legend for his own play and not just for his fantastic sons with their four combined Super Bowl wins.

We need to stop dreaming about getting a QUALITY free agent at ANY position. In order to get anyone worth anything to come here, Mike Brown would have to seriously overpay, which we all know won’t happen. The only free agents we might be able to sign are ones that no one else wants, or some guy at the end of his career who’s looking for one more year.

I don’t think we’ve got a chance at drafting and SIGNING Joe Burrows. I’m guessing he, or his agent, will hear from Boomer Esiason and/or Carson Palmer, telling him to stay the hell away from the dumpster fire that is the Cincinnati Bengals.


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(11-29-2019, 12:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The QB who can win without talent around him is a myth.

Drew Brees had 4 losing seasons in 5 years ('12-'16)

Aaron Rodgers was 10-12-1 over the last two seasons.

Yeah, Russel Wilson and Lamar Jackson are just stacked with offensive talent around them...

(11-29-2019, 01:02 PM)bjf123 Wrote: We need to stop dreaming about getting a QUALITY free agent at ANY position.  In order to get anyone worth anything to come here, Mike Brown would have to seriously overpay, which we all know won’t happen.  The only free agents we might be able to sign are ones that no one else wants, or some guy at the end of his career who’s looking for one more year.

I don’t think we’ve got a chance at drafting and SIGNING Joe Burrows.  I’m guessing he, or his agent, will hear from Boomer Esiason and/or Carson Palmer, telling him to stay the hell away from the dumpster fire that is the Cincinnati Bengals.

Maybe, but I could see him playing here and NOT signing an extension.  It's sort of like YES you can go to Mexico but NO do NOT drink the water.

(11-29-2019, 08:56 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yeah, Russel Wilson and Lamar Jackson are just stacked with offensive talent around them...

Not so sure about the Seahawks but Lamar Jackson has a great line, good defense, Mark Ingram, Gus Edwards, Mark Andrews, a great front office, very good coaching, and Hollywood Brown is legit... If anything Jackson's shortcomings as a passer are holding him back.

Wilson plays with one of the best LBs in the game, has a great running attack behind him, Tyler Lockett's becoming a star, and DK Metcalf will be as well.

In summation; both those teams have championship pedigrees, and know how to assemble a roster.

(11-29-2019, 10:22 PM)jason Wrote: Not so sure about the Seahawks but Lamar Jackson has a great line, good defense, Mark Ingram, Gus Edwards, Mark Andrews, a great front office, very good coaching, and Hollywood Brown is legit... If anything Jackson's shortcomings as a passer are holding him back.

Wilson plays with one of the best LBs in the game, has a great running attack behind him, Tyler Lockett's becoming a star, and DK Metcalf will be as well.

In summation; both those teams have championship pedigrees, and know how to assemble a roster.

You can name a handful of talented players from every team in the league, including ours. Point is those 2 QB’s I mentioned can carry their offense virtually on their own. Especially Wilson. He’s been doing it for years with bad OL’s and a bunch of nobodies at WR.

(11-30-2019, 12:51 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You can name a handful of talented players from every team in the league, including ours. Point is those 2 QB’s I mentioned can carry their offense virtually on their own. Especially Wilson. He’s been doing it for years with bad OL’s and a bunch of nobodies at WR.

I'll give you Wilson to a certain extent. That dude is efficient as hell, and I'm not sure Tyler Lockett puts up similar numbers on any ol team. At the same time... Seattle's been a run heavy team most of his career, and he was an athletic game manager when they were at the top. Bobby Wagner was the Super Bowl MVP when they won it. Hell Wilson and Darrel Bevell are the reasons they weren't back to back champs. I wouldn't call Golden Tate, Percy Harvin, Doug Baldwin, and Tyler Lockett nobodys either.

Lamar is a great athlete, and he's really improved a lot since last year. But he's got great organizational structure around him, a coordinator that built an offense for him (like he did with Kaepernick), and that O line mauls people. Teams know they're gonna run, and they still do it. I can only name Yanda, but they're great. That game against the 9ers tomorrow is gonna be interesting in the trenches.

I think there's a shelf life to his style of play though. and he's gonna have to adapt to keep it up. My fantasy team hasnt lost a game since week 3... Mostly because of him, so I'm not knocking him at all... Haha.

(11-29-2019, 08:56 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yeah, Russel Wilson and Lamar Jackson are just stacked with offensive talent around them...

Lamar Jackson has a two-time pro Bowl OC (Morgan Cox), a 7 time Pro Bowl and 2 time ALL PRO OT (Marshal Yanda), and a 2 time Pro Bowl RB (Mark Ingram).  The question is will Jackson be able to stay healthy.  He reminds everyone of Mike Vick, but what did Vick win?



While Wilson has been with the Seahawks he has had 

All Pro/4 time Pro Bowl RB Marshawn Lynch
All Pro/2 time Pro Bowl OC Max Unger
2 time Pro Bowl WR Doug Baldwin
2 time Pro Bowl TE Jimmy Graham
Pro Bowl WR Tyler Lockett
Pro Bowl OT Russell Okung
Pro Bowl OT Duane Brown

We need a rookie but if we went this route it’d have to be Bridgewater considering he’s the only QB in that poll that isn’t complete trash

(11-30-2019, 12:51 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You can name a handful of talented players from every team in the league, including ours. Point is those 2 QB’s I mentioned can carry their offense virtually on their own. Especially Wilson. He’s been doing it for years with bad OL’s and a bunch of nobodies at WR.

I do think they have transcendent talents.

You look at the Ravens though and they go 3 TE sometimes. Their coaches know how to build an offense to Jackson's strengths.

Zac so far has shown that he's running the same limited 12 plays every time. Who knows if they'd be smart enough to do what the Ravens do.

AND when you have a good QB, you get Pro Bowl guys because the QB makes the rest of the team better.

I do question IF the days of the pocket passer are gone for a while. Seems the mobile QB's are the way to go.

(11-30-2019, 06:59 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I do think they have transcendent talents.

You look at the Ravens though and they go 3 TE sometimes. Their coaches know how to build an offense to Jackson's strengths.

Zac so far has shown that he's running the same limited 12 plays every time. Who knows if they'd be smart enough to do what the Ravens do.

AND when you have a good QB, you get Pro Bowl guys because the QB makes the rest of the team better.

I do question IF the days of the pocket passer are gone for a while. Seems the mobile QB's are the way to go.

11 games versus how many for Roman and Harbaugh??

Ravens offense was weakness for years, now they figured it out

(11-30-2019, 07:32 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: 11 games versus how many for Roman and Harbaugh??

Ravens offense was weakness for years, now they figured it out

Harbaugh was 11-5 his 1st season as Ravens coach. In 12 years...he's finished under .500 exactly once. And under 9 wins 3 times. 10 playoff wins including a Super Bowl.

Their offense was never a strength, but it was adequate. (You don't win Super Bowls and have as much success as they've had with a bad offense.)

Zac has yet to show that he can make any aspect of the team better in Year 1. Any 'improvement' that fans can cite is essentially the team just not looking historically bad in some aspect.

Zac also inherited a veteran team. I don't think any of us expected to Super Bowl run...but he can't even win 1 single game. I don't know that more time is going to yield much success. Yeah...next year we might win 4-5 games if we keep him. But is that what we want?

Guys like Kingsbury came to the Cardinals as an 'offensive genius' and has actually made the Cardinals offense better. With a veteran QB like Dalton here, Taylor should have been able to do more. But, Taylor is a terrible OC which is his kryptonite...and Callahan isn't good enough to overcome that either.

(11-30-2019, 07:41 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Harbaugh was 11-5 his 1st season as Ravens coach. In 12 years...he's finished under .500 exactly once. And under 9 wins 3 times. 10 playoff wins including a Super Bowl.

Their offense was never a strength, but it was adequate. (You don't win Super Bowls and have as much success as they've had with a bad offense.)

Zac has yet to show that he can make any aspect of the team better in Year 1. Any 'improvement' that fans can cite is essentially the team just not looking historically bad in some aspect.

Zac also inherited a veteran team. I don't think any of us expected to Super Bowl run...but he can't even win 1 single game. I don't know that more time is going to yield much success. Yeah...next year we might win 4-5 games if we keep him. But is that what we want?

Guys like Kingsbury came to the Cardinals as an 'offensive genius' and has actually made the Cardinals offense better. With a veteran QB like Dalton here, Taylor should have been able to do more. But, Taylor is a terrible OC which is his kryptonite...and Callahan isn't good enough to overcome that either.

Why do you insist on trashing ZT and anything Bengals with every thread? We see and know we have major issues. We get it, you have no faith in FO (with drafting #1 overall pick}, no faith in HC, no faith in assistant coaches and no faith in our players.

ZT took over a 6 win team, then his 1st round pick never plays a game, his all world WR never plays a game and his starting LT never plays a game. ZT has not had a good year, no challenging it, but to start 100 threads saying same thing in a different way is getting creepy. 

(11-30-2019, 02:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lamar Jackson has a two-time pro Bowl OC (Morgan Cox), a 7 time Pro Bowl and 2 time ALL PRO OT (Marshal Yanda), and a 2 time Pro Bowl RB (Mark Ingram).  The question is will Jackson be able to stay healthy.  He reminds everyone of Mike Vick, but what did Vick win?



While Wilson has been with the Seahawks he has had 

All Pro/4 time Pro Bowl RB Marshawn Lynch
All Pro/2 time Pro Bowl OC Max Unger
2 time Pro Bowl WR Doug Baldwin
2 time Pro Bowl TE Jimmy Graham
Pro Bowl WR Tyler Lockett
Pro Bowl OT Russell Okung
Pro Bowl OT Duane Brown

You forgot Golden Tate, Percy Harvin, Chris Carson, and DK Metcalf...

(11-30-2019, 07:53 PM)jason Wrote: You forgot Golden Tate, Percy Harvin, Chris Carson, and DK Metcalf...

I wanted us to draft Metcalf so bad during the draft.

Then, this AJ Green situation wouldn't be so bad...because we'd have Boyd, Metcalf, Ross, and Tate next year. That would be looking pretty good!

(11-30-2019, 07:53 PM)jason Wrote: You forgot Golden Tate, Percy Harvin, Chris Carson, and DK Metcalf...

Plus, both the Ravens and Seahawks have great coaching staffs. I'd also say that their front offices are fairly aggressive in pursuing players too.

(11-30-2019, 02:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lamar Jackson has a two-time pro Bowl OC (Morgan Cox), a 7 time Pro Bowl and 2 time ALL PRO OT (Marshal Yanda), and a 2 time Pro Bowl RB (Mark Ingram).  The question is will Jackson be able to stay healthy.  He reminds everyone of Mike Vick, but what did Vick win?



While Wilson has been with the Seahawks he has had 

All Pro/4 time Pro Bowl RB Marshawn Lynch
All Pro/2 time Pro Bowl OC Max Unger
2 time Pro Bowl WR Doug Baldwin
2 time Pro Bowl TE Jimmy Graham
Pro Bowl WR Tyler Lockett
Pro Bowl OT Russell Okung
Pro Bowl OT Duane Brown

We’ve played this game before. If I listed that Andy Dalton has had Pro Bowl players like Whitworth, Green, Eifert, etc that doesn’t really tell the whole story does it?

But I know how much importance you place on Pro Bowls...

(11-30-2019, 09:04 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We’ve played this game before. If I listed that Andy Dalton has had Pro Bowl players like Whitworth, Green, Eifert, etc that doesn’t really tell the whole story does it?

But I know how much importance you place on Pro Bowls...

You made the point in another post that you can point to any team in the league and find talent.

There's no real way to know how Wilson or Jackson would have developed if they were Bengals. I tend to think that mobility is a key feature of modern QB's.

I could see Jackson's game fitting well here with a bad line, but we do have weapons at RB, TE, and WR. I feel like he's good enough to be a great player here. And for a player to be considered transcendent talent, they must succeed with lack of talent around them.

What's really hard to quantify is how much better he makes the players around him. Because maybe his running ability helps the line because teams can't blitz them as much.

(11-30-2019, 09:04 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But I know how much importance you place on Pro Bowls...

And I know how much you value your own opinion without anything to back it up.

Pro Bowl selections are not the ultimate measure of talent, but I am the kind os guy who likes to back up his position with facts instead of just saying "It is true just because I say it is."