(12-22-2019, 07:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Shut up Dalton. Just because we hate Palmer for quitting doesn't mean we can't hate you for not quitting.

I don’t hate Palmer at all in fact I think I was a bigger fan of Palmer for having the balls to stand up and say essentially with ownership like mike brown and the Blackburn’s winning a championship is not most important.

(12-22-2019, 11:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This team could get back on track with one good draft and a good free agency.

Dumping Green, Dalton and Glenn would clear up roughly $40+ million to revamp this roster.

Of course, with how this franchise operates, I doubt we will be players in free agency.

If we are it will be the shock of my Bengals fandom life.

Oh we may get some B- type few days in. Hobspin will talk him up like he's surefire All-pro on the rebound. You know how this movie ends.

(12-22-2019, 11:05 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: The franchise qb is important to get things moving in the right direction.  The thing about getting the number one pick in the draft is you get to pick your franchise qb with the first pick and you pick first in every single round. 

So the first pick in the second you can draft guys that should have gone middle first. First pick in third means you draft guys that should have gone middle second. 

Our whole draft is severely strengthened and it has a huge cumulative impact on getting good players in the draft. We've had some bad drafts lately because of bad scouting but also because we have picked late in the rounds. So this allows us to possibly get 2 to 3 impact players in the draft.

Coaching factors in too with developing guys. Guys like Jackson and Bates struggled under this staff.

We might draft good prospects and mess them up.

Other teams find good players drafting  in other spots than 1.

(12-22-2019, 08:55 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: He did more in less time than Boomer and Kenny.

Td's e owns. He is 2nd in yards with 6 less years than Kenny, but more than Boomer. He has a better Int. % by far than Kenny and Boomer and also fumbled less. I believe he also leads Bengals QB's in rushing Td's, but may be wrong.

To call him a bum because he plays to win is beyond classless.

He is leaving, he did not quit like Palmer an far surpassed Palmer's numbers in the same era. Yet, many still love CP and now trash the better QB record wise and numbers wise Dalton. Wish him well, he is a class act and according to Finley, he helped the rookie when he did not have to.

I wish Dalton and his wife a team that will appreciate his value and respect him as a human being.

Kenny and Boomer was a different time. Kinda hard to compare with the rules today. QB’s and WR’s are breaking records every year. Not sure how Dalton would have held up to the beating the QB’s used to take but I would be willing to bet money that Green would have missed more games then than he does now. Those guys got their asses kicked running down field every play. Dalton has been pretty durable throughout the years but you take Green away more than he has been and Daltons numbers would drop. Not to mention the beating he would take cause I’m sure in this imaginative senecio our Oline would still suck ass.

(12-22-2019, 10:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I wasn't wrong when I said Marv was 0-3 with different QB's. You must be leaving out the 2015 game with McCarron.

I look at the fact that all 4 QB's were terrible, and it makes me wonder if that's just coincidence. Say what you will about Kitna, but he was a passable QB who lit the Steelers up in the first half before melting down in the 2nd. Palmer was abysmal with a 58.3 passer rating in his full start. McCarron had 3 turnovers and was completely stonewalled for more than 3 quarters. It was easily his worst start filling in for Dalton.

Marvin was an atrocious big game coach, yet you don't think he or his conservative schemes played into all 4 QB's playing terribly in those situations?

I'm all aboard the Burrow train, but there's a LOT that goes into a 30 year streak without a playoff win, or 0-7. Blaming it all on 1 player is wishful thinking.

Indeed. This is a franchise with largely the same management team over that span and still a small scouting staff...that doesn't like free agency.

(12-22-2019, 11:42 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I have not seen one fan say not time for a new QB named Burrow. To me it is we know what is coming, we can thank A and his family for the efforts on and off the field, or we be classless fans and throw out names like bum and call others  stupid mother ___________.

It has been 4 tough years for Bengals fans, but we had a wining respected team 5 years in a row. Let's stay classy in the bad times, let's respect players and coaches personally, none deserve personal attacks.

Andy is a good guy. The latest in a long line of Bengals players to be villainized by the fanbase. Quite a shame.

(12-22-2019, 11:52 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: If we are it will be the shock of my Bengals fandom life.

Oh we may get some B- type few days in. Hobspin will talk him up like he's surefire All-pro on the rebound. You know how this movie ends.

Likely, we'll extend Mixon and Jackson and franchise AJ which will eat a lot of cap space up. Or atleast budget to do those things.

(12-22-2019, 11:42 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I have not seen one fan say not time for a new QB named Burrow. To me it is we know what is coming, we can thank A and his family for the efforts on and off the field, or we be classless fans and throw out names like bum and call others  stupid mother ___________.

It has been 4 tough years for Bengals fans, but we had a wining respected team 5 years in a row. Let's stay classy in the bad times, let's respect players and coaches personally, none deserve personal attacks.

The person I answered was taunting fans who want Dalton out of here so he deserved it.  I wasn't being classless about Dalton at all; It is 100% factual that he's a choke artist and should have been sent packing years ago.

Also the guy I answered said he wanted to win against the Dolphins, which means he was okay with not getting the first pick in the draft,  who would obviously be Joe Burrow. 

(12-22-2019, 08:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I've backed Andy for years, but you're right. He's salty that he's out.

I wish him the best elsewhere, and I wish Burrow a better situation than Andy's been saddled with.

So your wishing for new ownership or at least a new philosophy from current ownership?  Cuz that's the way any real change will occur.

(12-22-2019, 11:52 PM)TKUHL Wrote: Kenny and Boomer was a different time. Kinda hard to compare with the rules today. QB’s and WR’s are breaking records every year. Not sure how Dalton would have held up to the beating the QB’s used to take but I would be willing to bet money that Green would have missed more games then than he does now. Those guys got their asses kicked running down field every play. Dalton has been pretty durable throughout the years but you take Green away more than he has been and Daltons numbers would drop. Not to mention the beating he would take cause I’m sure in this imaginative senecio our Oline would still suck ass.

No doubt, 2 different eras these qb's played played in.

But Anderson plyed 15 or 16 years and AD gas surpassed him in TD;s and close in yards. Also more running TD's as well as lower fumble and interception rate.

I would add, the players 30 years ago were not close to the athletes we see on the field today. The weight and speed training today's players get is far superior. They were some great athletes, but common now for 300 Lb. OL and DL faster than a lot of pocket passers in today's game.

It’s all good. They’re not a real football team either.

(12-22-2019, 11:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Coaching factors in too with developing guys. Guys like Jackson and Bates struggled under this staff.

We might draft good prospects and mess them up.

Other teams find good players drafting  in other spots than 1.

At least it gives us a better chance to get good players in the draft, and even our franchise will have a hard time screwing up a draft where we pick first in every round. I never said anything is guaranteed in the draft, it just increases our chances of finding good talent in the draft.

I'm not writing off Taylor and his coaching staff just yet, it's his first season as coach and I'll give him at least another season to show us what he's got as a coach. He didn't inherit a very good team talent wise, so time will tell with Taylor and his staff. 

(12-22-2019, 11:28 PM)Ravage Wrote: That's changing the argument, so I'll take that as you just angrily admitting your initial premise was laughably flawed. 

I never said I thought Dalton was a great QB, I just pointed out that using 11 losses in a season as a measuring stick for if a QB is competent or not is off base. That's partially why I included Palmer on the list, b/c he sure wasn't great either. Speaking of Palmer though, he went 13 years, 12 actually playing (rookie year) before winning his one and only playoff game in 2015. So...your turn?

You try to put Dalton in the same category as HOF QB's. BTW Palmer actually won one!! Your turn.

(12-22-2019, 10:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I wasn't wrong when I said Marv was 0-3 with different QB's. You must be leaving out the 2015 game with McCarron.

I look at the fact that all 4 QB's were terrible, and it makes me wonder if that's just coincidence. Say what you will about Kitna, but he was a passable QB who lit the Steelers up in the first half before melting down in the 2nd. Palmer was abysmal with a 58.3 passer rating in his full start. McCarron had 3 turnovers and was completely stonewalled for more than 3 quarters. It was easily his worst start filling in for Dalton.

Marvin was an atrocious big game coach, yet you don't think he or his conservative schemes played into all 4 QB's playing terribly in those situations?

I'm all aboard the Burrow train, but there's a LOT that goes into a 30 year streak without a playoff win, or 0-7. Blaming it all on 1 player is wishful thinking.

I’m certainly not blaming it all on one player, I never said it was all on dalton. And I actually agree that Marvin was an atrocious big game coach.

But Marvin wasn’t the one out there throwing picks, missing wide open receivers, fumbling during a slide, etc. Conservative, scared game planning aside, turning the ball over and missing open receivers is all on the QB

Bottom line, Marvin and Andy both proved over and over they weren’t made for the bright lights. Neither were Kitna or McCarron... who knows how Palmer would have been had he never had his knee ripped to shreds. I still believe that broke him mentally.

(12-23-2019, 12:04 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: No doubt, 2 different eras these qb's played played in.

But Anderson plyed 15 or 16 years and AD gas surpassed him in TD;s and close in yards. Also more running TD's as well as lower fumble and interception rate.

I would add, the players 30 years ago were not close to the athletes we see on the field today. The weight and speed training today's players get is far superior. They were some great athletes, but common now for 300 Lb. OL and DL faster than a lot of pocket passers in today's game.

Can't touch a QB , can't put hands on a wr after five yds. The league is totally different than when Anderson plays. EVERY QB is better than the oldtimers because of the rules. Anderson was top ten in the league in his era. And any way he won playoff games and went to the SB. Dalton's records don't even come close.

(12-22-2019, 08:55 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: He did more in less time than Boomer and Kenny.

The game is much higher scoring now, can't compare eras like that. Boomer and Kenny were true leaders, Dalton is a wanabe leader. Kenny and Boomer did not really choke under pressure like the red rifle. 

(12-22-2019, 11:52 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: If we are it will be the shock of my Bengals fandom life.

Oh we may get some B- type few days in. Hobspin will talk him up like he's surefire All-pro on the rebound. You know how this movie ends.

...and ol' Hobspin will magically explain away our massive cap space? Yeah, we all know what's coming.

(12-22-2019, 11:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Indeed. This is a franchise with largely the same management team over that span and still a small scouting staff...that doesn't like free agency.

...and until they show they are truly open to change, nice drafts will just provide false hope. As nice as Burrow sounds.

(12-22-2019, 11:56 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Andy is a good guy. The latest in a long line of Bengals players to be villainized by the fanbase. Quite a shame.

Yep. Kenny, Boomer, Palmer, Dalton, Dillon, Pickens, Chad, Justin Smith, Dan Wilkinson, and now some are turning on AJ Green, too.

We're fickle bunch.

(12-23-2019, 12:03 AM)BenZoo2 Wrote: So your wishing for new ownership or at least a new philosophy from current ownership?  Cuz that's the way any real change will occur.

Pretty much. I'm dreaming, I know.

Yeah, and to hell with his opinion. I’ve suffered for 30+ years with this franchise and was rooting like hell for them to lose today. Sorry Dalton’s mediocre-ass can’t fathom that real bengal fans are ready for a real franchise QB.

(12-23-2019, 12:35 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: I’m certainly not blaming it all on one player, I never said it was all on dalton. And I actually agree that Marvin was an atrocious big game coach.

But Marvin wasn’t the one out there throwing picks, missing wide open receivers, fumbling during a slide, etc. Conservative, scared game planning aside, turning the ball over and missing open receivers is all on the QB

Bottom line, Marvin and Andy both proved over and over they weren’t made for the bright lights. Neither were Kitna or McCarron... who knows how Palmer would have been had he never had his knee ripped to shreds. I still believe that broke him mentally.

Palmer played/started for 14 years following that injury.  He played with a torn elbow longer than he should have in 2008, he snapped his donor acl in 2014, and there were times in 2015 when he and the Cardinals were having a great year when it seemed like he was playing too hard (guess he figured he was nearing the end, anyways).  For what it's worth, he didn't really seem to shy away from the game itself so much as trying to deal with Mike Brown.  

Whether or not you think Burrow will help rescue this team from the depths of NFL hell, I don't see it making a damn bit of difference unless management and coaching are able to do their parts. We will need Jonah back, a great draft and a lot of vastly overpaid free agents who will take a chance on this team for us to be successful.

I wouldn't count Dalton out of the NFL just yet. If he gets to a place where there is competent coaching and management, who the hell knows?
Actually, Burrow might not even agree to play here, especially with our track record. It's happened before with Elway and Eli. Nothing is set in stone just yet folks. Dalton could very well be back.....just saying.