(12-23-2019, 02:12 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Also, some QB have leadership qualities that make them elevate their game in big games. Dalton never showed that ever. Burrow has made his rep on that.

Dalton was 25-1 his last two seasons in college including a Rose Bowl victory over #4 Wisconsin in 2010 to finish the season 13-0 and ranked #2 in the nation.  Although Burrow has a good chance to this year, the fact is he has never finished a season ranked higher than #6.

(12-23-2019, 03:24 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Every draft prospect is taken without having played a down in the NFL.  

I know that.... you are the one that thinks taking Burrow will improve this team and even called me silly for saying that he won't improve our team next year. 

So a player that hasn't played a down is automatically an upgrade over a Pro Bowl QB who played in the post season 4 years in a row?  Doesn't make sense.  I get the hype, I get why we have to draft him.  Doesn't mean I have to like it, now do I?

(12-23-2019, 02:12 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Mostly its age at this point. I,m not really cool with trying to rebuild a team around an aging Dalton. And imo, if Dalton had the kind of talent and intangibles that Burrow has wed have won playoff games and he wouldnt need a guy like Green just to look above average. QB need blockers primarily. A really good QB even needs blo0cking, but can make his WRs better by being a great accurate passer. Something Dalton never was consistently. Also, some QB have leadership qualities that make them elevate their game in big games. Dalton never showed that ever. Burrow has made his rep on that.

You mean the intangibles and talent that Carson Palmer had when he was taken #1 overall?

And remember, Carson left here got to Arizona and had good coaching and an organization that wanted to win and actually won a playoff game.

Burrow is a product of the coaching and talent around him. If his greatness was based on skill we would have seen it last year when he threw for 2800 yards, 19 tds, and lost 3 games in his FIFTH college season.

Guys don't just suddenly go from "good" to "greatest" at age 24. If his greatness was based on his skills then we would have seen mor eof it before this year.

(12-23-2019, 03:28 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: I know that.... you are the one that thinks taking Burrow will improve this team and even called me silly for saying that he won't improve our team next year. 

So a player that hasn't played a down is automatically an upgrade over a Pro Bowl QB who played in the post season 4 years in a row?  Doesn't make sense.  I get the hype, I get why we have to draft him.  Doesn't mean I have to like it, now do I?

No, I said it was silly to just declare that, in your words...

"Getting Burrow will NOT improve this team.  Even if Burrow was the 2nd coming of Brady or Manning... our team will NOT improve."

If you noticed, I use words like 'hopefully' and 'potentially' when it comes to Burrow, Young or whoever as far as improving the roster. I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't declare any player will definitely be a stud or a dud, or how much they will or will not improve this team. There's no guarantees with any draft prospect.

(12-23-2019, 03:46 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: No, I said it was silly to just declare that, in your words...

"Getting Burrow will NOT improve this team.  Even if Burrow was the 2nd coming of Brady or Manning... our team will NOT improve."

If you noticed, I use words like 'hopefully' and 'potentially' when it comes to Burrow, Young or whoever as far as improving the roster. I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't declare any player will definitely be a stud or a dud. There's no guarantees with any draft prospect.

Our team will not improve..

What is so hard to understand with this.

The team is what is important... not the individual players.  The team has a lot of holes.  Getting a better QB will not improve this team next year. Our team improvement will be 0. 

Due to the team not being any good, Burrow will struggle.  He will struggle hard and some fans will turn on him pretty quickly.  Some will defend him, and some will defend him at first but then say... "If there is a chance to improve upon the position then you HAVE to take it".

I can handle them picking Burrow and missing, over not picking him, and him being a future franchise QB. He's given no reason this year not to be first QB taken, especially if he balls out the next two games with one coming against either OSU or Clemson.

(12-23-2019, 03:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Burrow is a product of the coaching and talent around him.  If his greatness was based on skill we would have seen it last year when he threw for 2800 yards, 19 tds, and lost 3 games in his FIFTH college season.

Guys don't just suddenly go from "good" to "greatest" at age 24.  If his greatness was based on his skills then we would have seen mor eof it before this year.

Look LSU went from a Power I Formation offense to a Shotgun RPO. But how Burrow is controlling that offense is the main thing. He sets protections reads the defenses, navigates the pressure to making throws. 

Alot of College and Professional teams are running that offense it's not brand new. Joe is taking it to the next level setting records for Yards, Touchdowns, and completion percentage in the SEC.

Are you going to say Tua Tagovailoa, Justin Fields, Trevor Lawrence arent good because of the systems they are running has gotten those schools to multiple CFB Playoffs year after year? 

(12-23-2019, 03:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton was 25-1 his last two seasons in college including a Rose Bowl victory over #4 Wisconsin in 2010 to finish the season 13-0 and ranked #2 in the nation.  Although Burrow has a good chance to this year, the fact is he has never finished a season ranked higher than #6.

Yeah I'm a TCU guy I'm well aware. Andy was a great college QB, but the fact remains, he never ever looked as good in all aspects of QBing as Burrow has this season, even in his best seasons. Ever. In fact LSU's Oline isnt very good and I would say TCUs was way better when Andy was there and TCU's defendse was unreal, and LSU's defense sucked the first half of the season. TCU had a great cast around him when he was there. It was the last great team they really had imo. Burrow gets a lot of pressure, but hes so good at evading it, to take a paper stat approach to trying to explain it just simply doesnt cut it. LSU's OL doesnt seem to give up many sacks so on paper it seems like he has a great loine. But to the eye test, it has way more to do with Burrow than it does LSUs OL. You wont convince me. Ive watched Dalton since he was coming out of high school. Was a huge fan of us drafting him and have been a big big supporter of his for 8 years here. I saw the light this year sorry to say. If TCU was in the SEC when Andy played they may have made a bowl game. Thats about it.

(12-23-2019, 03:55 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Our team will not improve..

What is so hard to understand with this.

The team is what is important... not the individual players.  The team has a lot of holes.  Getting a better QB will not improve this team next year. Our team improvement will be 0. 

Due to the team not being any good, Burrow will struggle.  He will struggle hard and some fans will turn on him pretty quickly.  Some will defend him, and some will defend him at first but then say... "If there is a chance to improve upon the position then you HAVE to take it".

I'm not sure you actually read my posts before responding. I've said that no matter who the pick is, there's still a lot of work to do. The 1st round pick is just one piece of a puzzle that needs quite a few pieces. 

(12-23-2019, 03:29 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: You mean the intangibles and talent that Carson Palmer had when he was taken #1 overall?

And remember, Carson left here got to Arizona and had good coaching and an organization that wanted to win and actually won a playoff game.

Meh, sort of. Burrow has closer to Palmers strong arm as Dalton does for sure. But Palmer wasnt evasive. He really didnt move well. Burrow seems to have eyes in the back of his head and also has played his best under the most pressure. Its hard to ignore that. Palmer didnt play his best under pressure. Dalton doesnt either. Carson was a Dan Marino style QB. Burrow is a Steve Young style QB which I personally think will fit here better.

(12-23-2019, 04:06 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I'm not sure you actually read my posts before responding. I've said that no matter who the pick is, there's still a lot of work to do. The 1st round pick is just one piece of a puzzle that needs quite a few pieces. 

OK, let me try to explain this to you better then.


If we didn't botch the whole thing with Dalton and Dalton played this whole year.  Now our record is probably different as the 2nd Steelers game and Raiders game probably would have been wins if Dalton were in at QB.  However let us assume they are losses at this point and that we still have the number 1 overall pick.

Now I am all for upgrading if possible and Dalton, while good is not the best QB, however I am also more of a fan of the right person over the best person.  I do think Mallet is a better QB than Dalton, but Mallet isn't the right QB for any system, but Mallet can throw the ball very well and hit his guys very well.  Dalton on the other had may not be the best but he can be the right QB.  Yes, you have to build around him to make him successful, but as I have said many times, that same rhetoric is true for all QBs.

With Dalton under center next year, we know what we have.  A Pro Bowl QB that has played in 4 playoff games and lead us to the playoffs 5 times in 9 years.  He was a part of a 0-8 season this year but he has also been apart of a 8-0 season as well.

So could we spend these picks and improve the team for immediate success as well as looking toward the future?  Keep Dalton at QB and draft Thomas and Bredeson (Kindley if available).  Being from Georgia, Thomas will be an immediate starter in the NFL, Bredeson as well for being a product of Michigan. 

This improves the line with Williams at one OT spot, Thomas on the other side.  Hopkins and Bredeson in the OC.  Leaving only 1 OG spot that needs to be filled.

I know, we could take Burrow and a guy like Wirfs in the 2nd round.  However the talent from the best OT to the next best is pretty significant.  Thomas can play both spots, and has done so at a high level.  Wirfs can only play 1 spot and he has a lot of work that needs to be done.  Jedrick Willis is about the same, even though he is a better prospect than Wirfs, he can only play the RT spot.

We can then take defensive players in the 3rd and 4th round.  I like Joe Bachie, myself.

This is improving the team.  This is making us better.  Not in 1 or 2 years, but next year.  Immediately.

(12-23-2019, 03:28 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: I know that.... you are the one that thinks taking Burrow will improve this team and even called me silly for saying that he won't improve our team next year. 

So a player that hasn't played a down is automatically an upgrade over a Pro Bowl QB who played in the post season 4 years in a row?  Doesn't make sense.  I get the hype, I get why we have to draft him.  Doesn't mean I have to like it, now do I?

Pro bowl quarterback lol. Ok. Is it 2015

(12-23-2019, 04:33 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Pro bowl quarterback lol.  Ok.  Is it 2015

Hey someone pointed out that Mixon is a Pro Bowl alternate RB.  So all is fair right.

Though to answer your question.  Yes.  Dalton is a Pro Bowl QB.  He has been selected 3 times in his career.

(12-23-2019, 04:31 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: OK, let me try to explain this to you better then.


If we didn't botch the whole thing with Dalton and Dalton played this whole year.  Now our record is probably different as the 2nd Steelers game and Raiders game probably would have been wins if Dalton were in at QB.  However let us assume they are losses at this point and that we still have the number 1 overall pick.

Now I am all for upgrading if possible and Dalton, while good is not the best QB, however I am also more of a fan of the right person over the best person.  I do think Mallet is a better QB than Dalton, but Mallet isn't the right QB for any system, but Mallet can throw the ball very well and hit his guys very well.  Dalton on the other had may not be the best but he can be the right QB.  Yes, you have to build around him to make him successful, but as I have said many times, that same rhetoric is true for all QBs.

With Dalton under center next year, we know what we have.  A Pro Bowl QB that has played in 4 playoff games and lead us to the playoffs 5 times in 9 years.  He was a part of a 0-8 season this year but he has also been apart of a 8-0 season as well.

So could we spend these picks and improve the team for immediate success as well as looking toward the future?  Keep Dalton at QB and draft Thomas and Bredeson (Kindley if available).  Being from Georgia, Thomas will be an immediate starter in the NFL, Bredeson as well for being a product of Michigan. 

This improves the line with Williams at one OT spot, Thomas on the other side.  Hopkins and Bredeson in the OC.  Leaving only 1 OG spot that needs to be filled.

I know, we could take Burrow and a guy like Wirfs in the 2nd round.  However the talent from the best OT to the next best is pretty significant.  Thomas can play both spots, and has done so at a high level.  Wirfs can only play 1 spot and he has a lot of work that needs to be done.  Jedrick Willis is about the same, even though he is a better prospect than Wirfs, he can only play the RT spot.

We can then take defensive players in the 3rd and 4th round.  I like Joe Bachie, myself.

This is improving the team.  This is making us better.  Not in 1 or 2 years, but next year.  Immediately.

Dalton played the same Steelers team with the same QB and scored 3 points. It is not a guarantee we win with him. Dalton is 2-16 in his last 18 starts. Burrow's potential > greater than Dalton's known. I feel like you think if we draft Burrow we don't have any other draft picks. Look at Joe Thomas. One of the greatest OTs of this generation. 0 playoff appearances. Our last number 1 draft pick at least got us 2 appearances. The potential of the team goes up exponentially with Burrow over an offensive lineman. 

(12-23-2019, 04:37 PM)OswaldsLegacy Wrote: Hey someone pointed out that Mixon is a Pro Bowl alternate RB.  So all is fair right.

Though to answer your question.  Yes.  Dalton is a Pro Bowl QB.  He has been selected 3 times in his career.

I think 2-16 in last 18 starts is more relevant. 

(12-23-2019, 04:00 PM)Synric Wrote: Look LSU went from a Power I Formation offense to a Shotgun RPO. But how Burrow is controlling that offense is the main thing. He sets protections reads the defenses, navigates the pressure to making throws. 

If Burrow was elite at all of those things we would have seen better numbers last year

(12-23-2019, 04:00 PM)Synric Wrote: Are you going to say Tua Tagovailoa, Justin Fields, Trevor Lawrence arent good because of the systems they are running has gotten those schools to multiple CFB Playoffs year after year? 

Are you saying that every college QB who puts up big numbers will be a good NFL QB?

(12-23-2019, 04:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If Burrow was elite at all of those things we would have seen better numbers last year



Are you saying that every college QB who puts up big numbers will be a good NFL QB?

I understand the system piece making it questionable, but how much different are the players this year vs last year he is playing with? If they were so amazing why didnt he put up this numbers last year? 

(12-22-2019, 11:24 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: David Klinglers?  What a comparison!  With such a defeatist attitude, why even put a QB out there?  They should probably sign the 5 most expensive FA o-line on the market and spend all of their draft picks on linemen.  Then they can play a jumbo Wildcat formation and play 1950s style ball with all of their talented o-linemen!  QB play just DOES NOT matter in the modern league, folks!  Tom Bradys would not fare ANY BETTER than Tyrod Taylors with a poor line in front of him.  

Zeitlers and Whitworths were indeed good players who were not replaced.  Mike Browns prefers to snicker to himself in the mirror that he got "good value" rather than pay market prices for FAs.

This post was sponsored by the lettter S.

(12-23-2019, 04:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If Burrow was elite at all of those things we would have seen better numbers last year



Are you saying that every college QB who puts up big numbers will be a good NFL QB?

Carson Palmer put almost identical stats his junior year as Burrow did except Palmer had a worse record and more INTs and had been on the same team for 2 years previous. Burrow finished his first season on a new team with a QB rating of 133 as a junior. Palmer threw more than twice the INTs his junior year than Burrow did his junior year. Burrow was on a new team Palmer was in his 3rd year on his team. As a senior, Palmer really blew up and improved his numbers....but not to the level Burrow did. Burrows senior stats dwarf Palmers. Burrow threw for 15 more TD, half the INTs that Palmer did, almost 1000 more yards, and Palmer had Pete Carrol as a coach, not Farmer Fran. Its really not even close when you look at the stats.

Also would like to point out that USC was a QB factory and LSU was a QB graveyard until Burrow. It becomes very very clear why Burrow is the #1 pick this year, when you consider why Palmer was that year.