(12-31-2019, 12:43 PM)Au165 Wrote: You realize breaking off a comeback and getting a yard of separation is creating it right? If you break off a comeback and he is a yard in front of you then you need to be benched because that is a sight adjustment and it turns into a 9. Luckily I have looked through half the games worth of tracking data on the field and no comebacks were ran so we don't have to worry about that. The reality is most his routes were out rotues, go routes and slants. Separation on a go ball is moot because he is a jump ball receiver he isn't running by guys he is going up, the data shows the ball was not put into play enough for him to do that.

While he had 14 targets inside 20, the question is how many were catchable? 

(12-31-2019, 12:53 PM)Au165 Wrote: I'd like to once again bring up, Auden Tate had a 70.8 PFF rating. So aside from all the data I am trying to give people, a service that actually watched him play is also telling you he was good at his job. The advanced stats thing is going to be a losing effort as people are going to keep nagging about this or that so I'll shelve that for a second, Although I would like to point out Mike Williams gets less separation in LA but gets more catchable balls and is producing because of it. If you turn on the tape you get a guy who shields defenders and makes contested catches, it's plain as day on tape. You got a guy that if given more opportunity would have had a bigger impact but was performing at a level of alot of WR's who are much faster and much higher regarded (Fuller/Hilton/Brown/Sanders/ETC.)

Somewhere this has turned into people acting like I am telling you he is the next AJ Green. What I am saying is that Auden Tate with a full season and more opportunity with catchable balls can be a 1k reciever in this league. People saying he is a 3 or 4 at best are laughable as there is nothing backing that up other that "needs more separation/speed" which his actual production does not back up.

It was simply used as an example of how distance from the nearest defender doesn't necessarily translate to open.  If you want to use that criteria, then fine.  Quit dancing around the statistic with comparisons to other players.  Just state that Auden Tate is the 14th worst player in the league with a minimum of 43 targets at generating seperation per NFL Next Gen Stats.  At the end of the day, you're citing yet another statistic that Tate is poor at.

If you care to look up his catchable pass % in the red zone, go for it.  I'm not going to make your defense for you.  He sucks in the red zone, which is where he should hypothetically be at his best.

The thing with catchable pass % is that it's not always that the QB made a bad throw.  The WR can get knocked off his route, make the wrong adjustment, the defender made a play on the ball before it got to the WR, the QB may simply be throwing it away because the WR didn't get open and he's gotta get rid of it.  How often is Tate actually open and the QB misfires?  Not often from my recollection.  If the QB tossed him up more 50/50 balls when he's covered instead of protecting the ball, he would have more catches, but we would also be getting picked off a lot more, too.  It's the receiver's job to get open so the QB doesn't have to make a "chuck it and pray" decision.  

Football Outsiders also just ranked Tate 73rd out of 81 players with at least 40 targets, so the opinion of the experts seems divided.  Alex Erickson also had a 67.1 PFF rating, which is not far off, either.  However, I think we can all agree that our WR's were not good last year and need to be upgraded.  Tate has positive traits like his catch radius, contested catch ability, and ability to create yards after contact.  He has negative traits like his lack of speed, inability to generate seperation, and his poor red zone play.  He is what he is, which is a back half of the depth chart WR.  There should not be a single WR on this squad who should be assured of his spot on the depth chart next year.

(12-31-2019, 04:11 PM)Whatever Wrote: It was simply used as an example of how distance from the nearest defender doesn't necessarily translate to open.  If you want to use that criteria, then fine.  Quit dancing around the statistic with comparisons to other players.  Just state that Auden Tate is the 14th worst player in the league with a minimum of 43 targets at generating seperation per NFL Next Gen Stats.  At the end of the day, you're citing yet another statistic that Tate is poor at.

If you care to look up his catchable pass % in the red zone, go for it.  I'm not going to make your defense for you.  He sucks in the red zone, which is where he should hypothetically be at his best.

The thing with catchable pass % is that it's not always that the QB made a bad throw.  The WR can get knocked off his route, make the wrong adjustment, the defender made a play on the ball before it got to the WR, the QB may simply be throwing it away because the WR didn't get open and he's gotta get rid of it.  How often is Tate actually open and the QB misfires?  Not often from my recollection.  If the QB tossed him up more 50/50 balls when he's covered instead of protecting the ball, he would have more catches, but we would also be getting picked off a lot more, too.  It's the receiver's job to get open so the QB doesn't have to make a "chuck it and pray" decision.  

Football Outsiders also just ranked Tate 73rd out of 81 players with at least 40 targets, so the opinion of the experts seems divided.  Alex Erickson also had a 67.1 PFF rating, which is not far off, either.  However, I think we can all agree that our WR's were not good last year and need to be upgraded.  Tate has positive traits like his catch radius, contested catch ability, and ability to create yards after contact.  He has negative traits like his lack of speed, inability to generate seperation, and his poor red zone play.  He is what he is, which is a back half of the depth chart WR.  There should not be a single WR on this squad who should be assured of his spot on the depth chart next year.

Can you provide some evidence on his poor red zone play ?
I tnought alot of the offenses bad red zone play was more 
Scheme and ZT calling stupid plays like Dalton on a draw play 

(12-31-2019, 04:11 PM)Whatever Wrote: It was simply used as an example of how distance from the nearest defender doesn't necessarily translate to open.  If you want to use that criteria, then fine.  Quit dancing around the statistic with comparisons to other players.  Just state that Auden Tate is the 14th worst player in the league with a minimum of 43 targets at generating seperation per NFL Next Gen Stats.  At the end of the day, you're citing yet another statistic that Tate is poor at.

If you care to look up his catchable pass % in the red zone, go for it.  I'm not going to make your defense for you.  He sucks in the red zone, which is where he should hypothetically be at his best.

The thing with catchable pass % is that it's not always that the QB made a bad throw.  The WR can get knocked off his route, make the wrong adjustment, the defender made a play on the ball before it got to the WR, the QB may simply be throwing it away because the WR didn't get open and he's gotta get rid of it.  How often is Tate actually open and the QB misfires?  Not often from my recollection.  If the QB tossed him up more 50/50 balls when he's covered instead of protecting the ball, he would have more catches, but we would also be getting picked off a lot more, too.  It's the receiver's job to get open so the QB doesn't have to make a "chuck it and pray" decision.  

Football Outsiders also just ranked Tate 73rd out of 81 players with at least 40 targets, so the opinion of the experts seems divided.  Alex Erickson also had a 67.1 PFF rating, which is not far off, either.  However, I think we can all agree that our WR's were not good last year and need to be upgraded.  Tate has positive traits like his catch radius, contested catch ability, and ability to create yards after contact.  He has negative traits like his lack of speed, inability to generate seperation, and his poor red zone play.  He is what he is, which is a back half of the depth chart WR.  There should not be a single WR on this squad who should be assured of his spot on the depth chart next year.

Mike Williams is worse at "generating separation" what's your point? I continue to point out separation does not matter I'm not saying he gets separation I am saying not getting it does not matter. Mike Williams gets less separation and catches contested balls at a lower rate but has better stats because he has a better catchable pass % and more opportunities. Mike Williams is basically what people should want Auden Tate to be.

What is your argument he "sucks" in the red zone? Stats that you don't have context on? How many were Fades thrown out of bounds, we both don't know so using a stat without context is laughable. Again, Mike Willams had 18 targets in the Red Zone with 3 catches for 18.75%, heck Travis Kelce was 8 of 22 for 36%.

No, catchable pass percentage are passes that register within a certain distance from the WR they simply aren't even close. I again have watched enough tape to know even the passes Tate gets to often require him to leave his feet, they are horrible ball placement. I have never seen a group of people so excited to defend Andy Dalton an Ryan Finley's ball placement.

Football outsiders aren't "experts" evaluating anything they use a mathematical formula assigning value to things like situation, down and distance, targets, etc. They don't take into account things like poor QB play, errant throws that are their "targets", or anything they do when they don't have the ball in their hands. Hence why a guy like Tyler Boyd is ranked behind Hunter Renfrow and Danny Amendola (and only 5 sports higher than Tate).

(12-31-2019, 04:48 PM)Au165 Wrote:  I have never seen a group of people so excited to defend Andy Dalton an Ryan Finley's ball placement.

If the problem was with the QB then it would be the same for all Bengal receivers.  the fact that it was much worse with Tate means it has something to do with the receiver instead of the QB.

When a receiver runs sloppy routes than the ball is going to be farther away on any timing pattern.

When a receiver can't get open then he is going to get more "jump balls" and low throws because the QB has to throw away from the defender.

(12-31-2019, 05:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If the problem was with the QB then it would be the same for all Bengal receivers.  the fact that it was much worse with Tate means it has something to do with the receiver instead of the QB.

When a receiver runs sloppy routes than the ball is going to be farther away on any timing pattern.

When a receiver can't get open then he is going to get more "jump balls" and low throws because the QB has to throw away from the defender.

I got the tape that says differently Fred, I have spent the holidays rewatching almost the entire season (up to week 12). When you watch the tape he runs the red line on the 9 ball pretty well but has to fade to the sideline hard because Dalton doesn't like to keep the ball in play. He constantly wants to throw the back shoulder on the fade, which is fine, but most of them aren't on the back shoulder but away from his frame (not correct but AJ bailed him out doing it for years). Often on the downfield throws he under throws the ball (again not a route running issue) forcing plays where Tate has to stop turn around and jump over the defender to catch, or break up, the pass. Throwing curls 8 feet in the air has nothing to do with bad route running it comes with the QB dropping his elbow on the throw and delivering high. Depth is the biggest issue when you talk about ball placement being off with route running, his route running is okay he rounds the stem occasionally but his depth is fine.

I know people here like to recite cliche's and old sayings but the tape doesn't lie. He is a damn good receiver that with a better QB will be a real weapon in the future. For instance Joe Burrow's ball placement and trajectory (highly underrated on downfield passing) are superb and should make a big difference in Tate's catchable deep ball percentage.

(12-31-2019, 05:35 PM)Au165 Wrote:  Throwing curls 8 feet in the air has nothing to do with bad route running it comes with the QB dropping his elbow on the throw and delivering high.

So why does Dalton only throw like this to Tate?  Why is he able to throw so much more accurately to ALL his other receivers?

(12-30-2019, 10:53 PM)Whatever Wrote: Tate caught the same 50% of his targets this that Ross did.  Despite 4 more games and 24 more targets, he had 2 fewer TD's and only 69 more yards than Ross.  His stats were poor for a WR that got 80 targets over the course of the season.  He's not a #3 on anything more than a bad team and he's not better than Ross.  

WR is a huge problem area for this team.  It's honestly in worse shape than the OL.  We need to be drafting and signing over both Tate and Ross. 

(12-30-2019, 10:59 PM)Whatever Wrote: Ross averaged 18.1 ypc to top the team.

You realize not every WR comes into the NFL with a fully developed route tree, right?  Sending a guy that runs a 4.68 40 on go routes probably isn't a recipe for success.  He also lacks the short area quickness necessary for a number of different routes.  He has real physical limitations that limit how he can be effectively used in an offense.

Thanks for the stats on Ross Whatever. Knew he didn't have as bad of a year as some act like.

To SHRacer, I don't care where they line Auden up at but it seems that Boyd is more suited for the Slot with his excellent 
route running skills. Tate should be used more in the Red Zone even if he only had 1 TD on the year. Poor scheming all 
year pretty much from the coaches limited our player's success. Ross was also not used correctly when he was healthy.

(12-31-2019, 05:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Thanks for the stats on Ross Whatever. Knew he didn't have as bad of a year as some act like.

To SHRacer, I don't care where they line Auden up at but it seems that Boyd is more suited for the Slot with his excellent 
route running skills. Tate should be used more in the Red Zone even if he only had 1 TD on the year. Poor scheming all 
year pretty much from the coaches limited our player's success. Ross was also not used correctly when he was healthy.

Ross was severely underused when he came back from the 
IR. why they were giving Erickson more snaps than Ross is
Confusing. Yet again Erickson failed to find the end zone 

(12-31-2019, 04:48 PM)Au165 Wrote: Mike Williams is worse at "generating separation" what's your point? I continue to point out separation does not matter I'm not saying he gets separation I am saying not getting it does not matter. Mike Williams gets less separation and catches contested balls at a lower rate but has better stats because he has a better catchable pass % and more opportunities. Mike Williams is basically what people should want Auden Tate to be.

What is your argument he "sucks" in the red zone? Stats that you don't have context on? How many were Fades thrown out of bounds, we both don't know so using a stat without context is laughable. Again, Mike Willams had 18 targets in the Red Zone with 3 catches for 18.75%, heck Travis Kelce was 8 of 22 for 36%.

No, catchable pass percentage are passes that register within a certain distance from the WR they simply aren't even close. I again have watched enough tape to know even the passes Tate gets to often require him to leave his feet, they are horrible ball placement. I have never seen a group of people so excited to defend Andy Dalton an Ryan Finley's ball placement.

Football outsiders aren't "experts" evaluating anything they use a mathematical formula assigning value to things like situation, down and distance, targets, etc. They don't take into account things like poor QB play, errant throws that are their "targets", or anything they do when they don't have the ball in their hands. Hence why a guy like Tyler Boyd is ranked behind Hunter Renfrow and Danny Amendola (and only 5 sports higher than Tate).

Auden Tate is never going to be Mike Williams.  You're comparing a 4.49 guy to a 4.68 guy  Williams has 17 20+ yard catches and 8 40+ yard catches.  Tate had 8 20+ yard catches and 0 40+ yard catches.  While better QB play is a factor, the main reason Williams is a 1000 yard WR and Tate is a 575 yard WR is Williams is a big bodied WR with deep speed and Tate is a slow big bodied WR.  

Oh, I'm certain an inordinate number of fade passes were chucked out of bounds by noodle armed Andy in Tate's general direction in the red zone just for the specific reason of making him look like a joke inside the 20.  His red zone stats are what they are.  If you have facts to refute the reasonable inference we can make from his stats that Tate blows in the red zone, present them. If you don't, let it go.  You can throw some names out there that did worse, but that doesn't mean he did well.

While Andy doesn't have great ball placement, he was top 5 in the league in percentage of passes thrown to receivers with a defender within a yard of them.  That's because guys don't get open, including Tate.  While you can argue separation doesn't matter, the only guy in the top 20 in that metric that's in the playoffs is Russell Wilson.  You need guys that can get open if you want to win.

Hate to break it to you, but Boyd did not have some great season.  He was 7th in the league in targets, 25th in yards, tied for 11th in catches, and tied for 44th in TD's.  This year was really proof positive that Boyd isn't a #1.  In the current NFL, you give any decent WR enough targets and they'll put up decent yardage.

(12-31-2019, 08:59 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Things went kind of sideways and this thread became about what WRs folks like, etc, but I thought Tate might be (especially with Green out) a better candidate in the slot to utilize his strengths and Boyd could do everything Green did.  

People get hung up on 40 times, but Jerry Rice was not a burner rather he was an outstanding route runner.  Some of these things can be taught (some can't) and I thought the work that Tate put in this offseason showed a lot of his desire.  The guy has hands like glue and is tough as nails.  As you said, he is a damn fine ball player and I want to find ways to get him on the field.  

TJ Houshmanzadeh was no burner, either, but was tough as nails and "smooth" in his route running.  He also had great hands.  I see Tate as a bigger version of TJ and the more I watched him the more I was impressed with his route running.  

TJ had far better short area quickness, and was a better route runner. The homers can beg to differ, but Tate is no more than a WR4, and more likely a 5. In other words, he’s replaceable. He’s the latest Dane Sanzenbacher.

(12-31-2019, 07:14 PM)Whatever Wrote: Auden Tate is never going to be Mike Williams.  You're comparing a 4.49 guy to a 4.68 guy  Williams has 17 20+ yard catches and 8 40+ yard catches.  Tate had 8 20+ yard catches and 0 40+ yard catches.  While better QB play is a factor, the main reason Williams is a 1000 yard WR and Tate is a 575 yard WR is Williams is a big bodied WR with deep speed and Tate is a slow big bodied WR.  

Oh, I'm certain an inordinate number of fade passes were chucked out of bounds by noodle armed Andy in Tate's general direction in the red zone just for the specific reason of making him look like a joke inside the 20.  His red zone stats are what they are.  If you have facts to refute the reasonable inference we can make from his stats that Tate blows in the red zone, present them. If you don't, let it go.  You can throw some names out there that did worse, but that doesn't mean he did well.

While Andy doesn't have great ball placement, he was top 5 in the league in percentage of passes thrown to receivers with a defender within a yard of them.  That's because guys don't get open, including Tate.  While you can argue separation doesn't matter, the only guy in the top 20 in that metric that's in the playoffs is Russell Wilson.  You need guys that can get open if you want to win.

Hate to break it to you, but Boyd did not have some great season.  He was 7th in the league in targets, 25th in yards, tied for 11th in catches, and tied for 44th in TD's.  This year was really proof positive that Boyd isn't a #1.  In the current NFL, you give any decent WR enough targets and they'll put up decent yardage.

Boyd is an ideal WR3, and a lower end WR2. His skills are suited to the slot.

(12-31-2019, 07:25 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: TJ had far better short area quickness, and was a better route runner.  The homers can beg to differ, but Tate is no more than a WR4, and more likely a 5.  In other words, he’s replaceable.  He’s the latest Dane Sanzenbacher.

Did you really watch Tate ? If you dId then you would see he's about 10x the WR Sanezenbacher ever was.
Dane was a poor man's Alex Erickson.
Showed up big in preseason and dId less in the regular season 
He's out of football for a reason. 
Dane could never make the catches Tate makes 

(12-30-2019, 08:04 PM)impactplaya Wrote: This coaching staff really had no imagination or creativity
When it came to Auden Tate.
Whenever he would line up he would run the same
4 routes over and over. Usually his back was turned to the defense
Or he had his body extended to Make a catch very few others on this team could make.
Kinda funny for all the anti Tate guys who say he can't separate
Or they wanted to keep Core over him Tate averaged 14.0 per catch
I think that was tops on the team.
Tate really needs to be used on more routes than the same 4 I saw
This year
I'd like to see him used on more seam routes with his momentum going foward

The lack of imagination or creativity of this coaching staff unfortunately included more than just Auden Tate.Hopefully they’ll get better at it over time.

(12-31-2019, 08:06 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Did you really watch Tate ? If you dId then you would see he's about 10x the WR Sanezenbacher ever was.
Dane was a poor man's Alex Erickson.
Showed up big in preseason and dId less in the regular season 
He's out of football for a reason. 
Dane could never make the catches Tate makes 

Why dId you spell dId the way you dId?

(12-31-2019, 07:10 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Ross was severely underused when he came back from the 
IR. why they were giving Erickson more snaps than Ross is
Confusing. Yet again Erickson failed to find the end zone 

Who knows how healthy Ross was when he came back. I always defend Ross pretty much but this has always been the main
thing that holds him back, injuries. Strange how Tyreek Hill is always healthy and has the same speed but Ross cannot stay 
healthy with his speed and cuts. God I wish Ross could stay healthy cause he is definitely a game changer out there even if 
he is not catching the ball. You have to account for that speed.

(12-31-2019, 08:06 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Did you really watch Tate ? If you dId then you would see he's about 10x the WR Sanezenbacher ever was.
Dane was a poor man's Alex Erickson.
Showed up big in preseason and dId less in the regular season 
He's out of football for a reason. 
Dane could never make the catches Tate makes 

Yeah, bad comparison. Love how Tate snatches the ball out of the air, it is a rare quality that players like Core just do not have.

(12-31-2019, 08:58 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: The lack of imagination or creativity of this coaching staff unfortunately included more than just Auden Tate.Hopefully they’ll get better at it over time.

Completely agree, need to see major growth in imagination and creativity here to become a good team again regardless.

Haven't used Mixon, Tate or Ross the way they should be. One thing about Mixon is he still produces.

Which is why I want to extend Mixon, dude plays his ass off.

(12-31-2019, 10:34 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: I still think they're going to tag AJ to make him prove he can stay healthy all year.  Although I'm not a big fan of that decision I would love to see what Tate could do with AJ and Boyd in the game.  I too would like to see Tate in the slot but Boyd does really good dirty work in there.  Tate's got great hands which is a huge thing when being covered single in man.  

I guess my point is I'm a little twisted with the AJ scenario.  I'd like to see them get a good pick in the draft by trade but also curious to see how the 3 would do if on the field at the same time.  Guess that means either way I will both satisfied and dissatisfied..... so meh.

If AJ is either tagged or extended, the offense would look a lot different right off the bat.  Add a healthy Ross to the mix and it could be fun to watch.  

I think used correctly, Tate with his height, could easily become a poor man's TJ Housmanzadeh in the slot. From the outside, Tate could be a poor man's Chris Henry. However, I don't want to see Tate used as a#1or a #2.

With Burrows accuracy, I see Tate making huge strides next year...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

(01-04-2020, 06:04 PM)JSR18 Wrote: I think used correctly, Tate with his height, could easily become a poor man's TJ Housmanzadeh in the slot. From the outside, Tate could be a poor man's Chris Henry. However, I don't want to see Tate used as a#1or a #2.

With Burrows accuracy, I see Tate making huge strides next year...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Henry had another gear that Tate just does not have.

And I like Tate but Chris Henry was special in this aspect.

(01-04-2020, 08:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Henry had another gear that Tate just does not have.

And I like Tate but Chris Henry was special in this aspect.

Henry IMO was every bit as talented as AJ Green 
But back to Tate 
I think he should be used much like Eifert was used in 2015. 
Or maybe how the Ravens use Mark Andrews 

(01-04-2020, 09:24 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Henry IMO was every bit as talented as AJ Green 
But back to Tate 
I think he should be used much like Eifert was used in 2015. 
Or maybe how the Ravens use Mark Andrews