(01-07-2020, 03:36 PM)Okeana Wrote: 1.  I spoke about his 2018 weaknesses so how did I ignore it?

2.  omit;  no I am not omitting his weaknesses I am expressing that he overcomes weaknesses by addressing and improving upon them.  Which I find to be a favorable trait

3   They may draft Tua, just because Burrow is the #1 prospect doesn't mean he's our #1 prospect.  Considering our team history with injuries I think it's more likely they will want Burrow and no one has a magic ball so who knows.  TBH be it Burrows or Tua the one thing that worries me the most is offensive line in this draft and Taking advantage of this deep wide receiver class.  CB/LB is going to be hard for us to fix in the draft so I hope they actually make moves in free agency if they want to take advantage of our aging talent on the team.

4.  I am glad you're speaking more reasonably now about the subject and you have some good takes.  Just don't take this so personal.

You semi adresess his weaknesses and really didnt take on the fact he was one of the worst passers in the sec in 2018.  It wasnt just a decent season and then great season.  It was terrible season and now magical season. Historically we have seen this type of metoric rise over and over again.  A high percentage of people in this category fall somewhere inbetween and rarely are able to sustain the level of play from the 1 great season.

Ive been resonable the whole time.  People are just blinded by their love for burrow that they think by me saying joe isnt great is a personal attack against them.  I dont understand it at all.  I live in pittsburgh and am a bengals fan.  I have pretty thick skin.  Every year the draft rolls around I post more frequently and debate prospects with others.  Most of the time its very clear people have a very strong opinion of player x and they have only seen him play 2 games and its very frustrating.  If im talking about a player ive seen all or most of every game they have ever played.  I mean when somebody is talking about joe burrow having a pretty good 2018 its really hard to value what they are saying.  It just makes it obvious they are a casual fan that really hasnt watched joe, yet they want to tell me how big of an idiot I am.  These are usually the same types that quote something they read from "pff" or some draft site.  I havent really watched him but walter football says hes better so he has to be.

(01-07-2020, 07:07 PM)mikey6866 Wrote: You semi adresess his weaknesses and really didnt take on the fact he was one of the worst passers in the sec in 2018.  It wasnt just a decent season and then great season.  It was terrible season and now magical season. Historically we have seen this type of metoric rise over and over again.  A high percentage of people in this category fall somewhere inbetween and rarely are able to sustain the level of play from the 1 great season.

Ive been resonable the whole time.  People are just blinded by their love for burrow that they think by me saying joe isnt great is a personal attack against them.  I dont understand it at all.  I live in pittsburgh and am a bengals fan.  I have pretty thick skin.  Every year the draft rolls around I post more frequently and debate prospects with others.  Most of the time its very clear people have a very strong opinion of player x and they have only seen him play 2 games and its very frustrating.  If im talking about a player ive seen all or most of every game they have ever played.  I mean when somebody is talking about joe burrow having a pretty good 2018 its really hard to value what they are saying.  It just makes it obvious they are a casual fan that really hasnt watched joe, yet they want to tell me how big of an idiot I am.  These are usually the same types that quote something they read from "pff" or some draft site.  I havent really watched him but walter football says hes better so he has to be.

Terrible season?  In that LSU system from last year I wouldn't say the following is a terrible season:

58% completion percentage, 2894 yards, 16 TDs to 5 Ints.

(01-07-2020, 07:07 PM)mikey6866 Wrote: You semi adresess his weaknesses and really didnt take on the fact he was one of the worst passers in the sec in 2018.  It wasnt just a decent season and then great season.  It was terrible season and now magical season. Historically we have seen this type of metoric rise over and over again.  A high percentage of people in this category fall somewhere inbetween and rarely are able to sustain the level of play from the 1 great season.

Ive been resonable the whole time.  People are just blinded by their love for burrow that they think by me saying joe isnt great is a personal attack against them.  I dont understand it at all.  I live in pittsburgh and am a bengals fan.  I have pretty thick skin.  Every year the draft rolls around I post more frequently and debate prospects with others.  Most of the time its very clear people have a very strong opinion of player x and they have only seen him play 2 games and its very frustrating.  If im talking about a player ive seen all or most of every game they have ever played.  I mean when somebody is talking about joe burrow having a pretty good 2018 its really hard to value what they are saying.  It just makes it obvious they are a casual fan that really hasnt watched joe, yet they want to tell me how big of an idiot I am.  These are usually the same types that quote something they read from "pff" or some draft site.  I havent really watched him but walter football says hes better so he has to be.

I have went back and looked at Joe Burrow in 2018 and how he evolved from 2018 to his stunning 2019 season. That is what you need to do when you're looking at prospects.

In 2018 Joe Burrow was undercenter in a 12 personnel man/gap scheme that tried to run every down and play defense. He was efficient in this system but like most first year players he locked on to his first read and tried to force balls along with one of the highest drop rates in the SEC.

In the 2019 offseason LSU changed to a shotgun RPO with inside zone. With hard work and study Joe Burrow and his receivers he was able to really open up his skillset. Burrow is now the one of the best QBs reading defenses at the line pre and post snap. The RPO allows him to read the linebackers and either hand it off fake it or even just take it himself without the fake (drop back and pass not run even though some are designed runs). He is the best QB in college football going through his reads. He throws with such anticipation that the windows his is putting balls into is very small and he is doing it at all 3 levels. His vision and pocket awareness are his best traits these allow him to see rushers and receivers which makes him the best QB in college football making off schedule plays.

2018 isn't the issue you and many more are making it out to be because you can see the growth, development, and hard work he has made to become the Heisman Trophy Winner. 

(01-07-2020, 07:29 PM)Synric Wrote: I have went back and looked at Joe Burrow in 2018 and how he evolved from 2018 to his stunning 2019 season. That is what you need to do when you're looking at prospects.

In 2018 Joe Burrow was undercenter in a 12 personnel man/gap scheme that tried to run every down and play defense. He was efficient in this system but like most first year players he locked on to his first read and tried to force balls along with one of the highest drop rates in the SEC.

In the 2019 offseason LSU changed to a shotgun RPO with inside zone. With hard work and study Joe Burrow and his receivers he was able to really open up his skillset. Burrow is now the one of the best QBs reading defenses at the line pre and post snap. The RPO allows him to read the linebackers and either hand it off fake it or even just take it himself without the fake (drop back and pass not run even though some are designed runs). He is the best QB in college football going through his reads. He throws with such anticipation that the windows his is putting balls into is very small and he is doing it at all 3 levels. His vision and pocket awareness are his best traits these allow him to see rushers and receivers which makes him the best QB in college football making off schedule plays.

2018 isn't the issue you and many more are making it out to be because you can see the growth, development, and hard work he has made to become the Heisman Trophy Winner. 

Love your look neyond the numbers.

This post deserves mega rep points   

(01-07-2020, 07:29 PM)Synric Wrote: I have went back and looked at Joe Burrow in 2018 and how he evolved from 2018 to his stunning 2019 season. That is what you need to do when you're looking at prospects.

In 2018 Joe Burrow was undercenter in a 12 personnel man/gap scheme that tried to run every down and play defense. He was efficient in this system but like most first year players he locked on to his first read and tried to force balls along with one of the highest drop rates in the SEC.

In the 2019 offseason LSU changed to a shotgun RPO with inside zone. With hard work and study Joe Burrow and his receivers he was able to really open up his skillset. Burrow is now the one of the best QBs reading defenses at the line pre and post snap. The RPO allows him to read the linebackers and either hand it off fake it or even just take it himself without the fake (drop back and pass not run even though some are designed runs). He is the best QB in college football going through his reads. He throws with such anticipation that the windows his is putting balls into is very small and he is doing it at all 3 levels. His vision and pocket awareness are his best traits these allow him to see rushers and receivers which makes him the best QB in college football making off schedule plays.

2018 isn't the issue you and many more are making it out to be because you can see the growth, development, and hard work he has made to become the Heisman Trophy Winner. 

And Bingo was his name O

I've said this since I started this thread.  There is a clear path of seeing his progression as a QB which is why I don't see him as a one year wonder.  I see a guy who learned his faults and improved upon them while having a team that supported him.  I don't see quit in him and I see great work ethic which is why I have no reservations as him being the #1 pick.

(01-07-2020, 07:07 PM)mikey6866 Wrote: You semi adresess his weaknesses and really didnt take on the fact he was one of the worst passers in the sec in 2018.  It wasnt just a decent season and then great season.  It was terrible season and now magical season. Historically we have seen this type of metoric rise over and over again.  A high percentage of people in this category fall somewhere inbetween and rarely are able to sustain the level of play from the 1 great season.

Ive been resonable the whole time.  People are just blinded by their love for burrow that they think by me saying joe isnt great is a personal attack against them.  I dont understand it at all.  I live in pittsburgh and am a bengals fan.  I have pretty thick skin.  Every year the draft rolls around I post more frequently and debate prospects with others.  Most of the time its very clear people have a very strong opinion of player x and they have only seen him play 2 games and its very frustrating.  If im talking about a player ive seen all or most of every game they have ever played.  I mean when somebody is talking about joe burrow having a pretty good 2018 its really hard to value what they are saying.  It just makes it obvious they are a casual fan that really hasnt watched joe, yet they want to tell me how big of an idiot I am.  These are usually the same types that quote something they read from "pff" or some draft site.  I havent really watched him but walter football says hes better so he has to be.

If you are such a good evaluator of talent coming into the NFL why don't you work for a team to make them better. Listen, every one has their own opinions every year at draft time. The people who do this for a living are lucky to be right 50% of the time. You may end up being right but so could someone else. Where were you when they passed on Jackson and Mahomes.  I like to debate about the draft but I don't really know you or think I can change your opinion. Only time will tell who was right until then carry-on. 

(01-07-2020, 06:12 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Cherry pick much? You want to totally discount this year but tout QBs who couldn't hold his jock strap this year. Why if the QBs you listed as being better than Burrow in 2018 did he out preform every single one of them. In fact he outperformed every single QB in SEC history. But in your eyes he is a sure fire bust?

How many one year wonder in the college level produce at the Pros. He had one exceptional year doesn't mean he will have success. Also having key components such as chemistry with skilled players and having a good OL all helps contribute to having success. Burrow had that as LSU. He will have to form that chemistry with his new teammates and unlike college NFL has rules in place to limit this.

I'm sorry but even great QB would fail behind the OL that the Bengals had this pass year. After taking so many hits as a QB your confidence and ability to step up in the pocket will diminish. 

I rather build the trenches again and improve the OL and DL over improving the QB. If the QB doesn't have the time to make the read than than no matter who is back there won't matter. As for prospects that get drafted, most OL drafted in the first round tend to play at least 5 years and many end up as starters. Some become all pros and others are just ok. IMO, I rather drop back and pick up some additional picks and draft the best OL to go along with Williams if the team cannot pick anyone up in FA. If the Bengals can pick up some solid OL than I would happy with Burrow as a pick, otherwise trade back and go with OL as the 1st round pick. 

(01-08-2020, 11:18 AM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: I rather build the trenches again and improve the OL and DL over improving the QB. If the QB doesn't have the time to make the read than than no matter who is back there won't matter. As for prospects that get drafted, most OL drafted in the first round tend to play at least 5 years and many end up as starters. Some become all pros and others are just ok. IMO, I rather drop back and pick up some additional picks and draft the best OL to go along with Williams if the team cannot pick anyone up in FA. If the Bengals can pick up some solid OL than I would happy with Burrow as a pick, otherwise trade back and go with OL as the 1st round pick. 

You can do both in the draft.

We also have Fred Johnson, who the team is looking to lean on next year and didn't play much until the end of last year.

(01-08-2020, 11:27 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: You can do both in the draft.

We also have Fred Johnson, who the team is looking to lean on next year and didn't play much until the end of last year.

Johnson kind of scares me. He didnt play against good teams, he played against scrubs. I really dont want to rely on UDFAS protecting a rookie.

Bu I also dont want Bobby Fart on the team either. I'd love for them to go OL 2nd round. It's a position that needs a complete makeover and I know one guy wont fix it, but if Josh Jones is there I'd be upset if he wasnt the pick.

(01-08-2020, 11:18 AM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: How many one year wonder in the college level produce at the Pros. He had one exceptional year doesn't mean he will have success. Also having key components such as chemistry with skilled players and having a good OL all helps contribute to having success. Burrow had that as LSU. He will have to form that  chemistry with his new teammates and unlike college NFL has rules in place to limit this.

I'm sorry but even great QB would fail behind the OL that the Bengals had this pass year. After taking so many hits as a QB your confidence and ability to step up in the pocket will diminish. 

I rather build the trenches again and improve the OL and DL over improving the QB. If the QB doesn't have the time to make the read than than no matter who is back there won't matter. As for prospects that get drafted, most OL drafted in the first round tend to play at least 5 years and many end up as starters. Some become all pros and others are just ok. IMO, I rather drop back and pick up some additional picks and draft the best OL to go along with Williams if the team cannot pick anyone up in FA. If the Bengals can pick up some solid OL than I would happy with Burrow as a pick, otherwise trade back and go with OL as the 1st round pick. 

how many 3 or 4 year starters succeed in the NFL?  I can name plenty of 1-year guys who have had great productive careers.  Also just because a QB improves doesn't make him a one year wonder.  Burrow was highly rated coming out of college, but took time and work to grow into his potential.  This is not a guy who has played one year of quarterback.

(01-08-2020, 12:45 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Johnson kind of scares me. He didnt play against good teams, he played against scrubs. I really dont want to rely on UDFAS protecting a rookie.

Bu I also dont want Bobby Fart on the team either. I'd love for them to go OL 2nd round. It's a position that needs a complete makeover and I know one guy wont fix it, but if Josh Jones is there I'd be upset if he wasnt the pick.

Fred Johnson has earned his right to compete and he has all the physical traits to be a starter.  That doesn't mean you don't draft guys, but its a slap in the face to a guy who we have locked up 2 years on a cheap contract to act like he's a worthless pos because he "kind of scares you".  shame on you

(01-08-2020, 12:45 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Johnson kind of scares me. He didnt play against good teams, he played against scrubs. I really dont want to rely on UDFAS protecting a rookie.

Bu I also dont want Bobby Fart on the team either. I'd love for them to go OL 2nd round. It's a position that needs a complete makeover and I know one guy wont fix it, but if Josh Jones is there I'd be upset if he wasnt the pick.

I think it is just something they need to take an extended look. Regardless of his draft position, if he can play, he can play. I would really like them to take a long hard look at him and see if he can really play. If so, that would be wonderful and would help tremendously. I still want to see the G positions shored up on the offensive line, regardless of what happens. I want the offensive line addressed to protect Burrow.

(01-08-2020, 12:52 PM)Okeana Wrote: Fred Johnson has earned his right to compete and he has all the physical traits to be a starter.  That doesn't mean you don't draft guys, but its a slap in the face to a guy who we have locked up 2 years on a cheap contract to act like he's a worthless pos because he "kind of scares you".  shame on you

Did I touch a nerve? I never called him anything other than what he is-a UDFA who probably needs time to develop. If you watched some tape you would see that he does some things that will get him destroyed when he tries to block good players. That's why the steelers were trying to put him on the PS not keep him on the 53. He needs work. 

Hes already better than Fart, but that isnt saying much.

(01-08-2020, 01:14 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think it is just something they need to take an extended look. Regardless of his draft position, if he can play, he can play. I would really like them to take a long hard look at him and see if he can really play. If so, that would be wonderful and would help tremendously. I still want to see the G positions shored up on the offensive line, regardless of what happens. I want the offensive line addressed to protect Burrow.

I mean it's pretty difficult to get better at guard when your best guard suddenly retires right? We havent found anyone to fill his shoes-Price has been dreadful. That might be the spot they really need to address if Fred can play opposite Jonah Williams

(01-08-2020, 01:56 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Did I touch a nerve? I never called him anything other than what he is-a UDFA who probably needs time to develop. If you watched some tape you would see that he does some things that will get him destroyed when he tries to block good players. That's why the steelers were trying to put him on the PS not keep him on the 53. He needs work. 

Hes already better than Fart, but that isnt saying much.

yawn.  if you want to start a thread about this go right ahead and I will address it, but I will just take this for the troll post it is.

(01-08-2020, 12:45 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Johnson kind of scares me. He didnt play against good teams, he played against scrubs. I really dont want to rely on UDFAS protecting a rookie.

Bu I also dont want Bobby Fart on the team either. I'd love for them to go OL 2nd round. It's a position that needs a complete makeover and I know one guy wont fix it, but if Josh Jones is there I'd be upset if he wasnt the pick.

Totally get the sentiment; it's a wise sentitment to have.

But yes, you absolutely draft an OT high and you let the three compete for RT.

Once the dust settles, you have your starters and your two backups. Bang.

Hart did significantly better as well, as the season wore on.

(01-08-2020, 03:01 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Totally get the sentiment; it's a wise sentitment to have.

But yes, you absolutely draft an OT high and you let the three compete for RT.

Once the dust settles, you have your starters and your two backups. Bang.

Hart did significantly better as well, as the season wore on.

At least a few guys understand where I'm coming from.

It's a position of importance and guard needs another guy too. If they choose to ignore the line in the draft and think the current line is good enough Burrow is definitely going to get hurt.

(01-08-2020, 03:17 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: At least a few guys understand where I'm coming from.

It's a position of importance and guard needs another guy too. If they choose to ignore the line in the draft and think the current line is good enough Burrow is definitely going to get hurt.

No he’s “definitely” not going to get hurt. Man some of you are dramatic when it comes to our OL.

(01-08-2020, 03:17 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: At least a few guys understand where I'm coming from.

It's a position of importance and guard needs another guy too. If they choose to ignore the line in the draft and think the current line is good enough Burrow is definitely going to get hurt.

I don't think he'll necessarily get hurt, as his pocket movement is superb, but it will definitely kill drives and stunt his growth as a QB, which I guess is just as bad as getting hurt lol.

For the G sitch, Miller wasn't too bad and he was hurt on and off.

I also think he'd be better if he had better RT play, as well.

(01-08-2020, 12:48 PM)Okeana Wrote: how many 3 or 4 year starters succeed in the NFL?  I can name plenty of 1-year guys who have had great productive careers.  Also just because a QB improves doesn't make him a one year wonder.  Burrow was highly rated coming out of college, but took time and work to grow into his potential.  This is not a guy who has played one year of quarterback.

I hope Burrow is highly rated coming out of college as he is considered the top prospect.