Anyone watching Mahomes bring his team back from 24-0? Yeah, elite QB’s don’t matter lol

(01-12-2020, 06:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Anyone watching Mahomes bring his team back from 24-0? Yeah, elite QB’s don’t matter lol

I get the feeling this thread will age as well as other proclamations like Kyler Murray won’t go in the first round, Mahomes is a 4th round pick at best, and J.T. Barrett is a more athletic Lamar Jackson.

anyone thikn tom brady would be caught jumping on top of a car's hood? fire edelman ,fire the short man! Even andy. I would be fine if Andy won the superobwl and decided to act a little out of his red headedness.

(01-12-2020, 06:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Anyone watching Mahomes bring his team back from 24-0? Yeah, elite QB’s don’t matter lol

I don't see anyone saying they don't matter, the point is, it isn't a requirement to have one to obtain a Lombardi.

IF ANYONE thinks any of these non-elite QBs could have won a Lombardi WITH the Bengals since 1991, have been drinking the Kool Aid again.

(01-12-2020, 11:33 AM)BengalsFan1986 Wrote: Here are the Super Bowl Winning QBs since 2000.

2000-Trent Dilfer
2001-Tom Brady
2002-Brad Johnson
2003-Tom Brady
2004-Tom Brady
2005-Ben Roethlisberger
2006-Peyton Manning
2007-Eli Manning
2008-Ben Roethlisberger
2009-Drew Brees
2010-Aaron Rodgers
2011-Eli Manning
2012-Joe Flacco
2013-Russell Wilson
2014-Tom Brady
2015-Peyton Manning
2016-Tom Brady
2017-Nick Foles
2018-Tom Brady

Of those, I’d consider Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco, and Nick Foles to not be elite QBs. Of those, Dilfer, Johnson, and Flacco had amazing individual seasons backed up by elite defenses. In Foles SB winning year he was a back up during the regular season, where Carson Wentz had an amazing season backed up by an elite defense. None of the teams with these QBs had any sustained success.

This is the list of QBs with multiple starts in the Super Bowl. Tom Brady, John Elway, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Roger Staubach, Peyton Manning, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, Bob Griese, Ben Roethlisberger, Kurt Warner, Fran Tarkenton, Bart Starr, Jim Plunkett, Eli Manning, Len Dawson, Joe Theismann, Brett Favre, Russell Wilson, and Craig Morton.

The Oakland Raiders in the 70’s, the NY Giants in the late 80’s early 90’s, and the SF 49ers in the 80’s/90’s were the only teams I could find that had won Super Bowls within the same decade with two different QBs. The Raiders did it with Ken Stabler and Jim Plunkett. The Giants did it with Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler. The 49ers did it with Joe Montana and Steve Young. The worst duo from that group is probably Simms and Hostetler? Not exactly slouches at the QB position.

Can you win without an elite QB? Yes, you can. Can you reliably win without an elite QB? I’m going to say no.

Ryan Tannehill and the Tennessee Titans beating the Ravens and Patriots in back to back games is not something to use as a reason to not draft a QB if you think they can be elite. Derrick Henry became the first player to rush for 180 yards in back to back playoff games. If anything you argue that an elite OL and an elite RB are still important pieces in today’s NFL, not that you don’t need a QB.

I had this same post almost verbatim a couple months ago, lol. Major difference was I bolded the QBs I thought that were elite.

(01-12-2020, 07:47 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: I don't see anyone saying they don't matter, the point is, it isn't a requirement to have one to obtain a Lombardi.

IF ANYONE thinks any of these non-elite QBs could have won a Lombardi WITH the Bengals since 1991, have been drinking the Kool Aid again.

The first line and a half of this thread says “So tell me again why you need an elite qb to win in the nfl?its an outdated mode of thinking...” Although it’s not the exact phrase, “elite QBs don’t matter,” that’s basically the point.

If the only point of the thread is that you can win games in the NFL, and even a Super Bowl, without an elite QB, then I absolutely agree. It’s possible. I don’t agree that it is the most reliable way to win, or the easiest way to win, or the fastest way to win, but it is a way to win.

(01-12-2020, 11:03 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: I had this same post almost verbatim a couple months ago, lol. Major difference was I bolded the QBs I thought that were elite.

I wish I would have seen that one. Could have saved me some time typing!

(01-13-2020, 10:21 AM)BengalsFan1986 Wrote: The first line and a half of this thread says “So tell me again why you need an elite qb to win in the nfl?its an outdated mode of thinking...” Although it’s not the exact phrase, “elite QBs don’t matter,” that’s basically the point.

If the only point of the thread is that you can win games in the NFL, and even a Super Bowl, without an elite QB, then I absolutely agree. It’s possible. I don’t agree that it is the most reliable way to win, or the easiest way to win, or the fastest way to win, but it is a way to win.

It's NOT just 'possible' it's happened, time and again!!  Another point is, the definition of elite.  I think you have to have time to prove that you are 'elite'.

Example:  I would not classify Watson as elite, I think it's premature.

Lastly, there are QBs that come to an elite status that were never Heisman winners or college studs.

In fact, look at the GOAT Brady for example.

You don't NEED an elite QB to win it all, but a majority of the teams to win the Super Bowl in the past 20 years have had elite QBs.

The only teams to not have elite QBs and win the Super Bowl:
- 2000 Ravens (Dilfer)
- 2002 Bucs (Johnson)
- 2012 Ravens (Flacco)
- 2017 Eagles (Foles)

That's it.
Every other year has had an elite QB win the Super Bowl for the last 20 years.
And the teams that didn't have an elite QB when they won had an outstanding running game and defense. The Bengals would need (at least) 3 new OL, 1+ DL, 2 new LBs, and probably 1-2 new DBs to get to that level.

Would it not be easier/simpler to get an elite QB rather than have to bring in a bunch more players to build an elite running game and defense?

With that said, there is also logic (to your point) to build the team around the QB first then get the QB.
Having multiple 1st rounders would provide more chances to get really good players and build up the team.
But they also should not keep Dalton around regardless. His $17.7 mill cap needs to go elsewhere.

(01-13-2020, 10:29 AM)bengalguy71 Wrote: It's NOT just 'possible' it's happened, time and again!!  Another point is, the definition of elite.  I think you have to have time to prove that you are 'elite'.

Example:  I would not classify Watson as elite, I think it's premature.

Lastly, there are QBs that come to an elite status that were never Heisman winners or college studs.

In fact, look at the GOAT Brady for example.

Yes, it has happened. I’m not denying that at all. Teams can, and do, win without elite QBs. You are right.

You are also right that it takes time to find out for sure if someone is elite. Can’t tell right away. Carson Wentz a few years ago looked to be elite, now that’s in question. Same with Watson like you pointed out.

Also 100% agree that you don’t have to be a college stud or Heisman winner to be elite. We are on the same page there.

If you look at the Super Bowl winners over the last 20 years, and those have been listed and pointed out here a few times in this thread already, you can see that although teams have won without an elite QB, the majority of Super Bowls have been won by teams with elite QBs. The teams that have won multiple Super Bowls have elite QBs. I would rather be in the category with the majority of SB wins than the category with fewer SB wins, which makes me want to have an elite QB.

Will Joe Burrow be an elite NFL QB? I have no idea. It seems like he has a shot at it though, so I say we see what he can do.

(01-13-2020, 11:11 AM)ochocincos Wrote: You don't NEED an elite QB to win it all, but a majority of the teams to win the Super Bowl in the past 20 years have had elite QBs.

The only teams to not have elite QBs and win the Super Bowl:
- 2000 Ravens (Dilfer)
- 2012 Ravens (Flacco)
- 2017 Eagles (Foles)

That's it.
Every other year has had an elite QB win the Super Bowl for the last 20 years.
And the teams that didn't have an elite QB when they won had an outstanding running game and defense. The Bengals would need (at least) 3 new OL, 1+ DL, 2 new LBs, and probably 1-2 new DBs to get to that level.

Would it not be easier/simpler to get an elite QB rather than have to bring in a bunch more players to build an elite running game and defense?

With that said, there is also logic (to your point) to build the team around the QB first then get the QB.
Having multiple 1st rounders would provide more chances to get really good players and build up the team.
But they also should not keep Dalton around regardless. His $17.7 mill cap needs to go elsewhere.

2015 broncos?

(01-12-2020, 06:45 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Anyone watching Mahomes bring his team back from 24-0? Yeah, elite QB’s don’t matter lol

Exactly !

As has been stated several times: Can you win without a top shelf QB ? sure. But your margin for error goes way down. Winning it all with Joe Blow at QB is the exception to the rule.

Any chance at sustained success requires more at the most important position.

And this whole take 3 years building the team then get your QB is just nuts ! So how long can you maintain paying this entire All pro team ? How you gonna draft this elite QB drafting toward the bottom with your 10-6 record ? What if somebody else drafts your guy ?

(01-13-2020, 11:48 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly !

As has been stated several times: Can you win without a top shelf QB ? sure. But your margin for error goes way down. Winning it all with Joe Blow at QB is the exception to the rule.

Any chance at sustained success requires more at the most important position.

And this whole take 3 years building the team then get your QB is just nuts ! So how long can you maintain paying this entire All pro team ? How you gonna draft this elite QB drafting toward the bottom with your 10-6 record ? What if somebody else drafts your guy ?

Now i realize how close the name Joe Burrow is to Joe Blow.  I hope this isn't an omen, but it would beat drafting a guy named Hurts 

(01-13-2020, 11:40 AM)Jpoore Wrote: 2015 broncos?

Peyton Manning was the QB.
He had a down year that year, but he was still considered an elite QB over his career, so I didn't think of him. I was thinking of QBs who have never been considered elite.
But yes, their defense was elite that year and helped compensate for his down year.

EDIT - I think you missed my point though. Even if you include 2015 Peyton Manning, you're looking at 5 years in the past 20. That's only 25%. The likelihood a non-elite QB wins a Super Bowl is very low. And none of Dilfer, Johnson, Flacco, or Foles has played in more than one SB.

(01-13-2020, 02:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Peyton Manning was the QB.
He had a down year that year, but he was still considered an elite QB over his career, so I didn't think of him. I was thinking of QBs who have never been considered elite.
But yes, their defense was elite that year and helped compensate for his down year.

EDIT - I think you missed my point though. Even if you include 2015 Peyton Manning, you're looking at 5 years in the past 20. That's only 25%. The likelihood a non-elite QB wins a Super Bowl is very low. And none of Dilfer, Johnson, Flacco, or Foles has played in more than one SB.

To further my point on this, let's look at this year.
Packers (Rodgers)
49ers (Garoppolo)
Chiefs (Mahomes)
Titans (Tannehill)

We'll see if the 49ers and Titans can both win this weekend, but I'd put my money on either Mahomes or Rodgers raising that Lombari in a few weeks.

Houston was missing some starters on both sides of the call but Mahomes did what the good QBs do - he made them pay. He was definitely in the zone. It will be interesting to see how the Titans approach the Chiefs in game plan terms. They can't just do what they did to Jackson because unlike Jackson Mahomes does have some touch on his ball - also the speed in the KC receiving corps and backfield is unreal.

(01-13-2020, 11:11 AM)ochocincos Wrote: You don't NEED an elite QB to win it all, but a majority of the teams to win the Super Bowl in the past 20 years have had elite QBs.

The only teams to not have elite QBs and win the Super Bowl:
- 2000 Ravens (Dilfer)
- 2002 Bucs (Johnson)
- 2012 Ravens (Flacco)
- 2017 Eagles (Foles)

This completes the list SINCE SBs began.
Eli Manning
Jeff Hostetler
Jim Plunkett
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien
Jim MacMahon
Joe Namath
Len Dawson
I can make a case that Terry Bradshaw could be on this list, even though he won 4 Lombardis.  During the season, throughout his career, Chuck Knoll played musical chairs with his QBS between Bradshaw, Hanratty, and Gilliam, because none of the 3 were consistent, but they had one of the best defenses in history, Franco Harris, Rocky Bleier, Lynn Swan, and John Stallworth!
Let's flip the coin here.  Here is a list of QBs that NEVER won a Lombardi OR an NFL Championship, before 1967, who, record wise, could very well be considered 'elite' depending on how you want to define elite!  You can't define an elite QB by the number of SBs they won or played, IMHO!
Kenny Anderson
Matt Ryan
Don Meredith
Archie Manning
Sonny Jurgensen
Jim Kelly
Tony Romo
Cam Newton
Phillip Rivers
Dan Fouts
Fran Tarkento
Warren Moon
Dan Marino
Matt Stafford ...
I could go on way back to Bobby Lane, Otto Graham, and Sammy Baugh as well.
IF the organization is sound, they CAN win without an A+ QB.
Like the Patriots, Ravens, AND Steelers.

(01-13-2020, 02:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Peyton Manning was the QB.
He had a down year that year, but he was still considered an elite QB over his career, so I didn't think of him. I was thinking of QBs who have never been considered elite.
But yes, their defense was elite that year and helped compensate for his down year.

EDIT - I think you missed my point though. Even if you include 2015 Peyton Manning, you're looking at 5 years in the past 20. That's only 25%. The likelihood a non-elite QB wins a Super Bowl is very low. And none of Dilfer, Johnson, Flacco, or Foles has played in more than one SB.

It took him 9 years to win his first SB and another 9 to win his second.

Why?  Because he didn't have the team around him until those 2 seasons!! 

(01-13-2020, 02:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: To further my point on this, let's look at this year.
Packers (Rodgers)
49ers (Garoppolo)
Chiefs (Mahomes)
Titans (Tannehill)

We'll see if the 49ers and Titans can both win this weekend, but I'd put my money on either Mahomes or Rodgers raising that Lombari in a few weeks.

Trust me, Garoppolo, is already a great QB. 

Brad Johnson came up multiple times on this thread, which was interesting to me since I lived in Central Florida from 94 through 06 and saw a lot of Buc games. What happened was that the Bucs had a monster defense that started in the late 90s and then by 2002 they finally put together enough of an offense to beat either St. Louis or Philadelphia. But they dropped off a cliff after that Super Bowl year, which partly says something about Jon Gruden's coaching.