(01-16-2020, 08:14 AM)TheBengalsMind Wrote: My problem isn't SAS assessment that the Bengals are a "mom and pop" franchise. They certainly have earned that label at time's, no one can deny that. Not even the most fanatically fanatical fan can deny it.
My problem is that they act like we're the only franchise that can ruin Joe Burrow, while at the same time muttering under their breath that Joe Burrow "really isn't that good."
We were the definition of 'mediocrity' not 'ineptness' this last decade. If we were talking the 90's, they'd have us.
Since 2010, in the regular season at 77-81-2 we won 48.7 percent of our games.
That puts us ahead of the LA Chargers (48.1), Chicago (47.5%), Arizona (47.5%) LA Rams (45.9%), Detroit (45.3%) Buffalo (44.4%), NY Giants (43.8%), Miami (43.8%), Tennessee (43.1%), NY Jets (42.5%), Oakland (39.4%), Washington (39.0%) Tampa Bay (36.9%), Jacksonville (31.9%), Cleveland (26.4%).
Some of these teams even had Future HOF coaches, QB's and players and we still won more games then they did. So this notion that you can't win in Cincinnati, but other places is ridiculous.
Cincinnati is definitely unique, no question about it, but hopeless? No.
Not to mention it took a 2-14 season to sink the Bengals to that winning percentage over the last decade. Regardless of how some of us FEEL, we aren't the worst run franchise in the NFL... Let alone all of professional sports.
(01-16-2020, 09:09 AM)jason Wrote: Not to mention it took a 2-14 season to sink the Bengals to that winning percentage over the last decade. Regardless of how some of us FEEL, we aren't the worst run franchise in the NFL... Let alone all of professional sports.
It depends on which metric you look at and how you gauge success. The Bengals empirically have the longest dearth of playoff wins out of 32 teams. The current ownership has never in their history won a game in the final elimination round which may lead to a Super Bowl championship. By that metric, they haven't even sniffed it. What they are famous for is the dead cat bounce, suddenly winning games once they are eliminated from playoff contention. Many teams would likely pump the breaks and regroup once they've been eliminated from a chance at taking first place. Not the Bengals! They revel in scooping up wins that cannot produce championships. It's reflective of their overarching philosophy of "give the fans something that's good enough", rather than striving for greatness. They may not be the worst, but they are quite possibly the most soul sucking and un-inspiring. They are perfectly content with being "not the worst." That's not what people pay for.
(01-16-2020, 09:32 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: It depends on which metric you look at and how you gauge success. The Bengals empirically have the longest dearth of playoff wins out of 32 teams. The current ownership has never in their history won a game in the final elimination round which may lead to a Super Bowl championship. By that metric, they haven't even sniffed it. What they are famous for is the dead cat bounce, suddenly winning games once they are eliminated from playoff contention. Many teams would likely pump the breaks and regroup once they've been eliminated from a chance at taking first place. Not the Bengals! They revel in scooping up wins that cannot produce championships. It's reflective of their overarching philosophy of "give the fans something that's good enough", rather than striving for greatness. They may not be the worst, but they are quite possibly the most soul sucking and un-inspiring. They are perfectly content with being "not the worst." That's not what people pay for.
All of that may be true, but the fact of the matter is Joe Burrow isn't doomed to failure just by setting foot in Cincinnati, and there are several other teams that have a history of "ruining" players. At the same time, I can't argue that they haven't driven me to the point of borderline apathy over the last few years. I guess burrow brings the hope the the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train. That's something...
(01-15-2020, 04:46 AM)Benton Wrote: Eh, I dunno. I like Carson, but he had outstanding receivers, a few good backs and some very good lines, at least early in his career in Cincinnati.
For maybe two seasons, then they let it go to shit, and the defense went to crap as well, he saw this and advocated for the FO to sign people to which they didnt, and thats why he wanted out.
(01-16-2020, 09:09 AM)jason Wrote: Not to mention it took a 2-14 season to sink the Bengals to that winning percentage over the last decade. Regardless of how some of us FEEL, we aren't the worst run franchise in the NFL... Let alone all of professional sports.
Many teams had a terrible season dragging down their win %. This team has a 30 year streak without a playoff win. They "supposedly" don't spend in free agency because they believe in building through the draft...yet their tiny scouting department contradicts this supposed philosophy.
They're one of maybe two teams in the entire league without a practice facility. They're slow to cut dead weight, slow to part with bad coaches, they're just slow. Mike Brown is woefully inept and I'd trade him for literally any other owner. There are other owners who are incompetent, but Mike is a special blend of incompetence and complacency.
(01-16-2020, 10:01 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Stephen A is an asshole.
Is what he said incorrect?
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(01-16-2020, 08:14 AM)TheBengalsMind Wrote: My problem isn't SAS assessment that the Bengals are a "mom and pop" franchise. They certainly have earned that label at time's, no one can deny that. Not even the most fanatically fanatical fan can deny it.
My problem is that they act like we're the only franchise that can ruin Joe Burrow, while at the same time muttering under their breath that Joe Burrow "really isn't that good."
We were the definition of 'mediocrity' not 'ineptness' this last decade. If we were talking the 90's, they'd have us.
Since 2010, in the regular season at 77-81-2 we won 48.7 percent of our games.
That puts us ahead of the LA Chargers (48.1), Chicago (47.5%), Arizona (47.5%) LA Rams (45.9%), Detroit (45.3%) Buffalo (44.4%), NY Giants (43.8%), Miami (43.8%), Tennessee (43.1%), NY Jets (42.5%), Oakland (39.4%), Washington (39.0%) Tampa Bay (36.9%), Jacksonville (31.9%), Cleveland (26.4%).
Some of these teams even had Future HOF coaches, QB's and players and we still won more games then they did. So this notion that you can't win in Cincinnati, but other places is ridiculous.
Cincinnati is definitely unique, no question about it, but hopeless? No.
Great post TBM. All true. We aren't that other team in Ohio these guys were all pimping before the year thank God lol
(01-16-2020, 10:19 AM)jason Wrote: All of that may be true, but the fact of the matter is Joe Burrow isn't doomed to failure just by setting foot in Cincinnati, and there are several other teams that have a history of "ruining" players. At the same time, I can't argue that they haven't driven me to the point of borderline apathy over the last few years. I guess burrow brings the hope the the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a train. That's something...
Yes, and he shown this year he can win big games which Dalton besides the Rose Bowl in college never really did here much.
Burrow has that ice water in his veins that we need to go win in the Playoffs and eventually a Super Bowl.
I am excited for once and as long as we help Burrow out with a few pieces on the O-line and some more weapons we should be good. But Taylor definitely needs to improve in every aspect. The good thing is he is still young and can learn new tricks. He isn't an old dog.
My bigger thing is we needed an attitude adjustment at QB, mr. nice guy ain't working. Oh if taylor was so smart to dump that season to get burrow, but he never would have known considering burrow has only had 1 great year.
Wish these point were brought up.
1 Lions only 1 season behind us in playoff win department
2 Made Carson Palmer highest paid player in the league
3 Owner incredibly loyal
4 As far as taking care of players see Trent Williams situation with Redskins or the staff infection outbreak with the Buccs.
5 How many young QB's have 3 new coordinators in their first 3 years. which leads to becoming a bust 0 percent chance that happens here
6 Mike Brown's age chances are his tenure with the Bengals will outlast Brown
(01-17-2020, 10:46 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: My bigger thing is we needed an attitude adjustment at QB, mr. nice guy ain't working. Oh if taylor was so smart to dump that season to get burrow, but he never would have known considering burrow has only had 1 great year.
there was nothing intential about this 2-14 record...
(01-16-2020, 02:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I just stumbled on this, which seems like a better discussion than the one on First Take:
Good points raised by both sides.
Good stuff there.
I almost hesitate to take the time to make this post because i'm already sure it's going to mostly fall on deaf ears, or will just be looked over due to already set opinions (either way) that aren't likely to change, no matter what...
I've said before that a QB can make a huge difference on a losing team. There's a post around here somewhere about all of the things in his control and how one guys decisions could produce a completely different outcome, over the decisions that were made by the current QB. Better decisions, better ball placement, be pocket awareness, etc.
If you take the Bengals record this past year and look at all the games lost by a touchdown or less, it's so easy to conclude that if a better QB makes a couple diffferent decisions, or is able to place the ball better, the team is automatically that many games better by changing a player at one single position. With that being said, even if you replaced the QB and won all those games, you're still looking at a .500 team.
When you don't draft the right players, use free agency and create a system that fits your players talents, you have to work that much harder just to play winning football, let along make the playoffs and compete for a championship. That's where the blow back comes from in the video you posted, from the many talking heads out there. You're trying to compete while keeping yourself at a competitive disadvantage.
This past season, Dalton wasn't getting the job done so the team decided to try Ryan Finley. That obviously didn't work, so all the Dalton fans that are still hanging on came out and proclaimed "i told you so" (among other things...w/e). That doesn't mean Joe Burrow, or any other 1st round talent QB can't come in here and improve the team. The thing is, he may improve the team but that improvement is only going to be proportionate to how much the FO invests in free agency and how well they do in the draft, as well as implementing a scheme that works with the players you have.
It's a 3 fold scenario. Burrow will improve the team to an extent. Then it's up to the FO to build a team and put in a scheme that works. For the life of me, i can't understand why that's not easy to see, from fans or the front office. The worst part is, up to right now, the front office doesn't seem to be able to see this, or they're just not able to do it. Or even worse, they're not willing to make the investment to do it.
Aaaaaaand with that last paragraph, i've just thrown a damper on next season and they haven't even started training camp yet. Thanks Rick...
Or maybe i should be thanking Mike Brown for creating this whole mindset and solidifying it with almost 30 seasons of failure, shortcomings, hope and coming up just short.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(01-18-2020, 12:23 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Good stuff there.
I almost hesitate to take the time to make this post because i'm already sure it's going to mostly fall on deaf ears, or will just be looked over due to already set opinions (either way) that aren't likely to change, no matter what...
I've said before that a QB can make a huge difference on a losing team. There's a post around here somewhere about all of the things in his control and how one guys decisions could produce a completely different outcome, over the decisions that were made by the current QB. Better decisions, better ball placement, be pocket awareness, etc.
If you take the Bengals record this past year and look at all the games lost by a touchdown or less, it's so easy to conclude that if a better QB makes a couple diffferent decisions, or is able to place the ball better, the team is automatically that many games better by changing a player at one single position. With that being said, even if you replaced the QB and won all those games, you're still looking at a .500 team.
When you don't draft the right players, use free agency and create a system that fits your players talents, you have to work that much harder just to play winning football, let along make the playoffs and compete for a championship. That's where the blow back comes from in the video you posted, from the many talking heads out there. You're trying to compete while keeping yourself at a competitive disadvantage.
This past season, Dalton wasn't getting the job done so the team decided to try Ryan Finley. That obviously didn't work, so all the Dalton fans that are still hanging on came out and proclaimed "i told you so" (among other things...w/e). That doesn't mean Joe Burrow, or any other 1st round talent QB can't come in here and improve the team. The thing is, he may improve the team but that improvement is only going to be proportionate to how much the FO invests in free agency and how well they do in the draft, as well as implementing a scheme that works with the players you have.
It's a 3 fold scenario. Burrow will improve the team to an extent. Then it's up to the FO to build a team and put in a scheme that works. For the life of me, i can't understand why that's not easy to see, from fans or the front office. The worst part is, up to right now, the front office doesn't seem to be able to see this, or they're just not able to do it. Or even worse, they're not willing to make the investment to do it.
Aaaaaaand with that last paragraph, i've just thrown a damper on next season and they haven't even started training camp yet. Thanks Rick...
Or maybe i should be thanking Mike Brown for creating this whole mindset and solidifying it with almost 30 seasons of failure, shortcomings, hope and coming up just short.
Lot of great points Rfaulk. The problem for me is I will always be a Bengal fan and I have to hope that eventually good things
happen to us instead of these bad breaks that happen anytime we are about to take that leap into being one of the best teams.
We need to go out and go over the top for Joe Burrow, need to put the players around him to succeed and hope that Zac Taylor
grows as a coach as well as Lou and the other coaches. Van Pelt is coming back and he is a good QB coach, this should help out
Burrow. I was afraid of losing Van Pelt.
In the end I agree with Bucky and Marcellus though. The hopelessness just doesn't fly to me. Any team can win the Superbowl
any year as we have seen. We have talent and in the end Mike Brown needs to just stay out of decision making clearly as
Schlereth alluded to cause I remember that very time in Hard Knocks when Mikey said that about moving the DE to TE.
Crazy shit to say instead of just going out and getting a TE. Would be funny to see Mikey watch that segment lol
We were probably the best team in the NFL in 2005. We had high expectations but failed to meet them for a variety of reasons not necessarily associated with "we bad" decisions from 2006 to 2008 (many were reverberating issues from Carson's 2005 injury). In 2009 we swept the division.
We were, by and large, a respectable team heading into 2010, where we became a bit of a circus with Chad going crazy and TO being just good enough to cause drama all over the place.
And then from 2012 to 2017, with Dalton, we were considered a playoff worthy franchise, although 2016 and 2017 did not go according to plan.
We still struggled with playoff wins but we were, in every conceivable way, turned around. A lot of that had to do with Carson Palmer turning the team around from its hilarious ineptitude before him (remember, before 2005, we hadn't hit .500 since 1990.)
And, what, now we have a few bad seasons and we're suddenly irredeemable again?
(01-16-2020, 09:09 AM)jason Wrote: Not to mention it took a 2-14 season to sink the Bengals to that winning percentage over the last decade. Regardless of how some of us FEEL, we aren't the worst run franchise in the NFL... Let alone all of professional sports.
I would say we are the worst run franchise in the NFL. That doesn't mean we're the worst performing, but definitely the worst run. I don't really see how anyone can argue against that.
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