(02-07-2020, 06:11 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Agree I think its to early to write Jordan off and I think he might turn out to be solid. My main point was the Bengals and Hobson list every single unproven/ below average player on the roster as a reason not to add additional talent on a roster desperate for it.

And I was basically agreeing with you.

Jordan may work out, but generally 4th round picks don't.

There were 93 OL drafted in the fourth round from '01-'16.

Only 19 (about 1 in 5)) started for more than 4 years (any year with 8+ starts)

Only 18 had years year's worth of start (64).

Former Bengals Mike McGlynn and Russell Bodine were two of the 19 who were starters for 4+ years.

(02-07-2020, 06:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I was basically agreeing with you.

Jordan may work out, but generally 4th round picks don't.

There were 93 OL drafted in the fourth round from '01-'16.

Only 19 (about 1 in 5)) started for more than 4 years (any year with 8+ starts)

Only 18 had years year's worth of start (64).

Former Bengals Mike McGlynn and Russell Bodine were two of the 19 who were starters for 4+ years.

I’m assuming the numbers are even worse for undrafted players ? That’s why I don’t think Fred Johnson will amount to much. He played at a big time program at Florida and 32 teams passed on him in every round. Not saying undrafted guys can’t workout but usually they go undrafted for a reason and rarely workout percentage wise.

(02-07-2020, 06:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I was basically agreeing with you.

Jordan may work out, but generally 4th round picks don't.

There were 93 OL drafted in the fourth round from '01-'16.

Only 19 (about 1 in 5)) started for more than 4 years (any year with 8+ starts)

Only 18 had years year's worth of start (64).

Former Bengals Mike McGlynn and Russell Bodine were two of the 19 who were starters for 4+ years.

But, on occasion, there are guys like Clint Boling that get drafted in the 4th round, and have long and productive careers.  Sure, the odds aren't in favor of mid and late round OL having long and productive careers, but you never know.  That's why each draft is like a lottery.  You could be a big winner, or just another loser.

(02-07-2020, 04:28 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: Paying attention to players' ages and potential drop off in play is certainly something good organizations do. The context of our exchange was him jumping on a guy (as if he was being ludicrous) for saying DL is a need and should be addressed in the first 4 rounds. I don't think it's a stretch for that guy to say that.

At the time of draft that year, I was OK with the Cedric pick, thought the Fischer pick was overkill so we agree to an extent. Whitworth is a significant outlier for maintaining his level of play late into his 30s. For every Whitworth, there are 30+ guys (excluding QB) whose level of play drops steeply after 10 years in the league (if they last that long). It sucks that he left and in hindsight, signing him would have been the better move, but I don't blame the Bengals for trying to find a replacement a year early. 

“Jumping on a guy” LOL

I merely disagreed with him. Last time I checked this place was intended for such discussions...

(02-07-2020, 08:28 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: “Jumping on a guy” LOL

I merely disagreed with him. Last time I checked this place was intended for such discussions...

Meh. That was a more "board friendly" phrasing that I decided to use to describe how you seem to react whenever someone has a differing opinion. Usually seem to ignore any points and get overly defensive. Perhaps I read your tone wrong. 

(02-07-2020, 09:23 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: Meh. That was a more "board friendly" phrasing that I decided to use to describe how you seem to react whenever someone has a differing opinion. Usually seem to ignore any points and get overly defensive. Perhaps I read your tone wrong. 

Ok guy lol

It’s the internet. If you’re not comfortable with people disagreeing with each other perhaps a sports message board is not the best place...

(02-07-2020, 09:23 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: Meh. That was a more "board friendly" phrasing that I decided to use to describe how you seem to react whenever someone has a differing opinion. Usually seem to ignore any points and get overly defensive. Perhaps I read your tone wrong. 

(02-07-2020, 09:26 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Ok guy lol

It’s the internet. If you’re not comfortable with people disagreeing with each other perhaps a sports message board is not the best place...

Easy guys, after 4 long and miserable years, it's finally going to be a fun year to be a Bengals fan.  Let's at least make it through this offseason, without wanting to choke each other out..

(02-07-2020, 09:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Easy guys, after 4 long and miserable years, it's finally going to be a fun year to be a Bengals fan.  Let's at least make it through this offseason, without wanting to choke each other out..

Hey I was merely disagreeing with someone (civilly I might add) not sure what the problem is...

(02-07-2020, 09:26 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Ok guy lol

It’s the internet. If you’re not comfortable with people disagreeing with each other perhaps a sports message board is not the best place...

(02-07-2020, 09:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: after 4 long and miserable years, it's finally going to be a fun year to be a Bengals fan. 

Those 4 years resulted in win totals of 6, 7, 6, and 2.  Since you're describing them, as a whole, as "miserable" I'm guessing "fun" to mean a greatly increased win total and/or playoffs.

To each their own, but I don't see it without a huge spluge in free agency. Barring the addition of at least 3 high level signings this team is not at all likely to improve on those totals.

The amount of pressure some of you are putting on a Burrow is absolutely insane. I don't think the idea that this year is guaranteed to be an improvement, and is taken as fact, is at all logical.

We've literally done nothing, or shown anything other than inhertiting the #1 pick, a reward for being the absolute worst team in the league. Adding this kid, with no other major changes, doesn't bode well for immediate results.

(02-07-2020, 09:55 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Those 4 years resulted in win totals of 6, 7, 6, and 2.  Since you're describing them, as a whole, as "miserable" I'm guessing "fun" to mean a greatly increased win total and/or playoffs.

To each their own, but I don't see it without a huge spluge in free agency. Barring the addition of at least 3 high level signings this team is not at all likely to improve on those totals.

The amount of pressure some of you are putting on a Burrow is absolutely insane. I don't think the idea that this year is guaranteed to be an improvement, and is taken as fact, is at all logical.

We've literally done nothing, or shown anything other than inhertiting the #1 pick, a reward for being the absolute worst team in the league. Adding this kid, with no other major changes, doesn't bode well for immediate results.

Obviously, you're entitled to your own opinion.  But for me, having a new franchise QB, a new LT, and our franchise WR back is going to make this a fun team to watch.  I get the impression from Hobson that free agency will be focused on improving the defense.  Should be a fun year to watch the rebuild progress.

I suppose I could see a decent argument for going with Jonah, Fred and Hart and seeing what shakes out at tackle. Guard, on the other hand, is a big pile of hopes and dreams. If they have a chance to get a good one in the draft, they should. Miller is just a guy and Jordan hasn't looked serviceable over enough games to be handed anything. I'd be shocked if Price amounts to anything at this point.

(02-07-2020, 09:55 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Those 4 years resulted in win totals of 6, 7, 6, and 2.  Since you're describing them, as a whole, as "miserable" I'm guessing "fun" to mean a greatly increased win total and/or playoffs.

To each their own, but I don't see it without a huge spluge in free agency. Barring the addition of at least 3 high level signings this team is not at all likely to improve on those totals.

The amount of pressure some of you are putting on a Burrow is absolutely insane. I don't think the idea that this year is guaranteed to be an improvement, and is taken as fact, is at all logical.

We've literally done nothing, or shown anything other than inhertiting the #1 pick, a reward for being the absolute worst team in the league. Adding this kid, with no other major changes, doesn't bode well for immediate results.

If we get the usual lackluster FA, and draft Burrow, 2020 feels like a 5-11 or 6-10 kind of season. The o-line, despite Baghdad Geoff’s puff piece, is still a bottom 5 unit, TE and WR are question marks, the LB’s are terrible, and the secondary needs upgrades at S and CB. It’s hard to squint and see a Wild Card team.

Many including myself will stress the need to protect Burrow as a reason to upgrade the OL. That's fine, but I think improving the group for Mixon is just as if not more important. He's been productive behind awful lines for 2 seasons.

I'd like to see what he could do with actual plus blockers in front of him. Imagine a guy like Joe behind Willie and Bobbie. He'd be a superstar. He'd also make life a lot easier for a rookie quarterback.

I don't disagree about the need for defensive upgrades, but the benefits of getting better guys up front are many and fit what they need to do to compliment the guys they have.

It looks like the team views this as a slow rebuild. They'll get the quarterback and youth on defense in the 2020 draft, then use 2021 to add to the offense. Just my interpretation of what's going on here. As usual, free agency will likely not be a major factor in building the Taylor-Burrow era Bengals.

(02-07-2020, 09:55 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Those 4 years resulted in win totals of 6, 7, 6, and 2.  Since you're describing them, as a whole, as "miserable" I'm guessing "fun" to mean a greatly increased win total and/or playoffs.

To each their own, but I don't see it without a huge spluge in free agency. Barring the addition of at least 3 high level signings this team is not at all likely to improve on those totals.

The amount of pressure some of you are putting on a Burrow is absolutely insane. I don't think the idea that this year is guaranteed to be an improvement, and is taken as fact, is at all logical.

We've literally done nothing, or shown anything other than inhertiting the #1 pick, a reward for being the absolute worst team in the league. Adding this kid, with no other major changes, doesn't bode well for immediate results.

Yeah, I'm not expecting much either. An upgrade at QB will help, but until Jonah Williams actually plays and plays well he's a big question mark. AJ Green, if the team signs him, is also a question mark. Last season everyone was excited about Jonah Williams being drafted and AJ coming back and that all went exactly nowhere.

This off-season needs to be out of the park for the team return to the playoffs. I look at the roster and see the need for 2 new LBers (others will say we don't need because the team only fields 2 LBers half the time), but players get injured and we could be right back where we are now if only one upgrade is brought in. More speed and better coverage is needed in the secondary, both NTs are free agents, Dunlap and Atkins are aging, WR has only two starting caliber players and one (AJ) hasn't played in a year and half, the OGs just need better players. And then there's RT. I guess the team will live or die on who's better, a never-done-well waste basket find or a practice squad pickup.

Then there's the coaching staff. They seemed to improve some as the year went on, but the competition also got weaker. I honestly don't know if the first half was better or the second half. In the first half they played better teams, but sucked horribly at it winning zero games. In the second half of the season they only played two teams with winning records and managed to only win two games, which is really f'n bad. At the rate this coaching staff is learning how to do it right it'll take a decade for them to figure out how to have a winning season and by then almost all of these players will be long gone.

All the signals coming from Hobspin, Tobin and the team indicate the team doesn't see any need to change how it tries to win and since it hasn't been winning I really don't see how doing the same things that didn't win are going to suddenly make a winner.

My confidence in this team is well below where it was at this time last year.

 

(02-07-2020, 11:22 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: if glenn and Williams are both back healthy and ready/willing to play... our OL is probly okay for next year.

still need a few some depth I think...

Thats my thinking. If they want to keep Glenn as our LG, then we may be fine for starters this year, but we have zero depth like last year. Id like to see another guard with great upside added at the very least. Would prefer one guard and one tackle.

(02-07-2020, 02:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You are definitely not wrong and it is a concern without a doubt if we think we are just hunky dory on the O-line.

Need at least one proven player at RT, RG or LG in FA. Whoever we get has to be a drive blocking O-lineman though.

No more bringing in Lineman that are good at drive blocking and trying to run zone blocking schemes. 

At least Turner learned that the Lineman we do have are much better at drive blocking. Need to add another.

The line definitely needs some identity. I have been wanting a veteran guard to solidify our line. The titans poached a guard from the rams and it worked out quite well on their run this year.

If they think they are good for this year with Glenn, they still need to draft one with a lot of potential. A guard that can play tackle would be great for depth.

(02-08-2020, 06:05 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Yeah, I'm not expecting much either. An upgrade at QB will help, but until Jonah Williams actually plays and plays well he's a big question mark. AJ Green, if the team signs him, is also a question mark. Last season everyone was excited about Jonah Williams being drafted and AJ coming back and that all went exactly nowhere.

This off-season needs to be out of the park for the team return to the playoffs. I look at the roster and see the need for 2 new LBers (others will say we don't need because the team only fields 2 LBers half the time), but players get injured and we could be right back where we are now if only one upgrade is brought in. More speed and better coverage is needed in the secondary, both NTs are free agents, Dunlap and Atkins are aging, WR has only two starting caliber players and one (AJ) hasn't played in a year and half, the OGs just need better players. And then there's RT. I guess the team will live or die on who's better, a never-done-well waste basket find or a practice squad pickup.

Then there's the coaching staff. They seemed to improve some as the year went on, but the competition also got weaker. I honestly don't know if the first half was better or the second half. In the first half they played better teams, but sucked horribly at it winning zero games. In the second half of the season they only played two teams with winning records and managed to only win two games, which is really f'n bad. At the rate this coaching staff is learning how to do it right it'll take a decade for them to figure out how to have a winning season and by then almost all of these players will be long gone.

All the signals coming from Hobspin, Tobin and the team indicate the team doesn't see any need to change how it tries to win and since it hasn't been winning I really don't see how doing the same things that didn't win are going to suddenly make a winner.

My confidence in this team is well below where it was at this time last year.

 

It looks like they are preaching that success = business as usual plus Burrow and Jonah Williams.  Meanwhile fans are hoping MB just hands power to ZT and/or Burrow throws a fit that undoes nearly 30 years of MB business.

(02-07-2020, 09:17 AM)Au165 Wrote: I mentioned this in the draft thread, I don't think the team sees the issues the same way we do. The big reason is Williams will fix the LT issue and Fred Johnson played well enough to get a shot at RT at the end of the year. Hopkins is the guy at Center and Miller was average but I think they will stay with him another year based on his contract. That really just leaves LG open and I believe they see Jordan as getting better throughout the year. I know the PFF grades by the way, just saying O line is a place coaches all over the league and PFF often disagree. Now say Lewis from LSU is there to start day 3 I don't think that precludes them from using a mid round pick on a value at guard ( or similarly tackle), however I don't think it'll be big assets.

I think you are right in saying that the team don't see the needs the same way we do but it's also worth remembering that they looked at trading up in the second for an extra lineman last draft.

Whilst we've added Jordan (4th round) and Fred Johnson (waivers) since then we've also lost Boling (retirement) and Glenn's gone on concussion strike.

I think they feel like they're in a position where they don't have to draft O-line but if the opportunity arises in the second round again to upgrade (and this year they won't need to trade up to do so) then they'll pull the trigger.

(02-07-2020, 07:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: But, on occasion, there are guys like Clint Boling that get drafted in the 4th round, and have long and productive careers.  Sure, the odds aren't in favor of mid and late round OL having long and productive careers, but you never know.  That's why each draft is like a lottery.  You could be a big winner, or just another loser.

Correct.  I could have framed the numbers differently and said that on average there is one 4th round o-lineman every year that starts at least 4 years in the NFL.

I liked the Jordan pick in the fourth.

Over the last 5 years we have spent three first round picks and one second round on the offensive line. We have also traded for the 8th highest paid OT in the league.

The front office obviously realizes how important the o-line is. They just can't pick the right players. With the resources we have spent on it we should have a very good O-line right now.