(02-25-2020, 07:42 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Someone forgot to tell Pat Mahomes defense wins championships...

Also, who cares that he was a Buckeye? I want the players that will give the Bengals the best chance to win a Super Bowl, not the ones that played college in Ohio.

You could have just scrolled past this thread. People can't even have hypothetical discussion about football and the Bengals, without you planting your two cents worth of your Joe Burrow opinion.

Everyone on this message board knows where your opinion lies!!

There could be a thread in Klotch about toe nail fungus, and if someone else mentioned that Joe Burrow had it, you would come rolling in with your BS!

(02-25-2020, 02:17 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Flip that around

Can you imaging the laughter (would be 10,000X greater) if we took Miami's 3 picks and one is decent player, one is backup quality, and one is total bust think Ogbuehi, Price, Ross. And Joe Burrow goes on to be All Pro, MVP, Superbowl winner ?

Sure I can. But again, this can be flipped both ways as well. It all depends if Burrow is really that great. He might or might not be, I'd guess there is no guarantee.

And when I compare option a) take Burrow to option b) Take Herbert/Tua (one of those will be there at 5) + a first round O-Liner + a first-round LB, I'd rather take option b. Three lottery tickets are better than one. And if one of those three doesn't work out, there are still two others that might. If Burrow doesn't work out, we're royally screwed.

(02-25-2020, 01:49 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: The Clemson game convinced me Joe is The One.  He didn't make mistakes early in the game when Clemson kept LSU on their own goal line.  Then when field position was better, he picked them apart in prime time, for the national championship.  That kind of poise comes naturally or not at all.  He has the athletic gifts, now he needs great coaching.  The Bengals can be pretty certain Burrow will have been worth the number 1 pick as they look back 5 years from next April.

I certainly hope you're right 5 years from now. The CF playoffs changed my mind on him as well (re:being the 1st pick). 

When you mentioned Burrow's NC game performance, however, my mind instantly went to Vince Young's NC game performance. And I realize there are good examples the other way (Deshaun Watson). I'm just saying his success isn't a guarantee and there are some question marks with him. I don't think it's that controversial to say that, at least not as much as some here make it out to be.  

I think some people forget having a great offense makes a so-so defense good... you know why? The defense wouldn't be on the field as much!

Draft Burrow and sign some Free agents

(02-25-2020, 02:01 PM)hollodero Wrote: This argument can go both ways though, doesn't it.

If we take Burrow and he becomes the next average, overdrafted QB we'd be the laughing stock as well. Even more so when Young gets three sacks per game.

(By that I do not say draft Young. What I will say is if Mimai gave us their three firstroundersx, there's a high danger of becoming a laughing stock by turning that offer down.)

I dunno. I think passing on stars gets criticized a hell of a lot more than drafting busts does.

For example, Chicago isn't criticized so much for drafting Trubisky as much as they are for not drafting Mahomes or Watson.

Drafting busts is just part of the game. But God have mercy on those who pass on future stars. You hear much more about how every team passed on Tom Brady and Lamar Jackson and less about the time the Jaguars drafted Blaine Gabbert.

But maybe that's just a perceptual difference.

(02-25-2020, 02:41 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I dunno. I think passing on stars gets criticized a hell of a lot more than drafting busts does.

For example, Chicago isn't criticized so much for drafting Trubisky as much as they are for not drafting Mahomes or Watson.

I don't know... I think the Bears get enough laughter for Trubisky as of now. I guess that Mahomes/Watson critizism is just the icing on that cake, since it's the same position. They could have drafted McCaffrey too, but no one mentions that.
I have to add though, the aspect of "getting ridiculed" is actually not that important to me. I merely expressed that imho this can happen either way.

(02-25-2020, 02:41 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Drafting busts is just part of the game.

Right. That's why I'd be all for having three high picks instead of one.

--- and the time the Bengals turned down all NO picks because they found their QB of the future is a really well known point of ridicule.

You ain’t even gotta convince me of Chase Young as a player. Dude is gonna be a top 10 pass rusher on day 1 and projects to be a perennial DPOTY candidate



But Burrow plays QB and we need QB. Chase is gonna make some team very happy

(02-25-2020, 07:28 AM)guyofthetiger Wrote: I like Joe Burrow and would not be upset if the Bengals picked him first in the draft. However, I still think the Bengals should keep Dalton one more year and pick Chase Young as the top draft pick. The first comment is defense wins championships. Chase is a beast and would secure the defense for many years to come. I guess I am asking for patience in getting a QB later. Being a Buckeye fits right in with the team. Either way the Bengals go would be okay with me.

After watching Ohio State play my 2 words on Chase Young are OVER RATED.   I don't even think he is the best defensive player on Ohio State.  THE Ohio State Buckeyes are very good at getting out the media hype.  Billy Price was suppose to be the best Center ever.  Big Daddy Wilkenson was suppose to be NFL Hall Of Fame all the way.  

This isn't rocket science.  The pick is the Heisman winner that broke NCAA passing and scoring records.  Plus he can run the hurry up and won big games in the last 2 minutes which Joe Montana, John Elway, Dan Marino, Phillip Rivers, Drew Brees did in college big games, run the 2 minute drill.  Joe Heisman scores points and the Bengals don't.  In today's NFL you need to put points on the board.  You will win darn few games scoring 10 or 14 points when NFL teams are scoring 30, 40, 50 and on good defenses. 

Another reason to draft Joe Heisman is Paul Brown Stadium is empty.  MONEY is a big part of PRO Football.  Right now nobody will be buying season tickets to see the worst team in the NFL.   However drafting Joe Heisman could be the biggest selling NFL Jersey this summer and Sell Some Tickets and Put Fans In The Stands. 

Also the Bengals have Atkins and Dunlap on the D Line.  Edge Rusher is not their biggest need.  O Line and Linebacker are.  However in a few weeks both AJ Green and Dalton will probably be on other teams in Free Agency and the Bengals won't really mind freeing up the 2 biggest salary cap hits and they are unsigned for this very reason.  The worst team in the NFL is ready for a complete make over going into a new decade.  Enter Joe Heisman. 

Not only will Bengals draft Joe Heisman but he will start the first game in September.  He will not ride the bench like Carson Palmer which was Marvin's first mistake as new coach. These rookies learn nothing on the bench.  Carson still had to make all his rookie mistakes his second year. 

At one point I bought into the Chase Young hype.  NOW is the time to draft the Franchise Quarterback of the Roaring 20's Decade.  Boomer has said to take Burrow and I think Carson said it also.  

The Bengals score no points, and Joe Heisman will score more points and put more Fans & Money in the stands than the Ohio State edge rusher. Against the AFC North, the Bengals will need a Franchise Quarterback since Baltimore and Cleveland already have good young Quarterbacks. The Bengals need to draft one and then the Steelers or they both will get left behind.

The NFL RULES changed everything. Maybe you use to win with 14 points and Defense. Not any more. Teams are putting up 30, 40, 50 points and against good defenses. If the Bengals continue to score 14 points, they may never win another game. The Bengals were right to bring in new coaches. Now they need to bring in new players. Mahomes and others are showing this is a whole new NFL. WE NEED JOE HEISMAN.

If we weren't looking for a QB id be fine with young but we are...

and its gonna be a long time before we find another that checks so many boxes when we have a pick to get them.

Local Boy
Hiesmann winner
NCAA Champion
Consensus #1 overall pick no matter the team.

Its hard to find all that... Last time we had all the boxes but local boy So Burrow is more of a lock than carson was imho.

(02-25-2020, 03:43 PM)kevin Wrote: Not only will Bengals draft Joe Heisman but he will start the first game in September.  He will not ride the bench like Carson Palmer which was Marvin's first mistake as new coach. These rookies learn nothing on the bench.

The examples of Rivers, Brady, Rodgers or Mahomes might indicate the opposite.

(02-25-2020, 04:01 PM)hollodero Wrote: The examples of Rivers, Brady, Rodgers or Mahomes might indicate the opposite.

They do not adjust to the speed of NFL until they are on the field.  All NFL Quarterbacks agree to this Fact.  NFL is twice as fast as College.  Burrow will only learn the speed of the game and NFL defenses by putting in his game reps and paying his dues.  Still, he gives us a better chance to win than Finley.   As for the empty seats, Build It And They Will Come.  In this case, Draft Him and Play Him and They Will Come. 

(02-25-2020, 07:28 AM)guyofthetiger Wrote: I like Joe Burrow and would not be upset if the Bengals picked him first in the draft. However, I still think the Bengals should keep Dalton one more year and pick Chase Young as the top draft pick. The first comment is defense wins championships. Chase is a beast and would secure the defense for many years to come. I guess I am asking for patience in getting a QB later. Being a Buckeye fits right in with the team. Either way the Bengals go would be okay with me.

(02-25-2020, 07:42 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Someone forgot to tell Pat Mahomes defense wins championships...

Also, who cares that he was a Buckeye? I want the players that will give the Bengals the best chance to win a Super Bowl, not the ones that played college in Ohio.

A Super Bowl winning team typically has defense that plays well enough but also an offense that can still score points.

You have to have an extremely suffocating defense to compensate for an inept offense.

So you both are right, in a way.

The problem with adding Chase Young is LBs are still so putrid that they can't cover the short routes and the opposing offenses will just dink and dunk past the DL.
Chase Young will not be able to compensate for an offense that only averaged 17 pts per game.
Chase Young would be a great piece to add if the Bengals went out and got a good LB and QA in FA though.

(02-25-2020, 02:22 PM)hollodero Wrote: Sure I can. But again, this can be flipped both ways as well. It all depends if Burrow is really that great. He might or might not be, I'd guess there is no guarantee.

And when I compare option a) take Burrow to option b) Take Herbert/Tua (one of those will be there at 5) + a first round O-Liner + a first-round LB, I'd rather take option b. Three lottery tickets are better than one. And if one of those three doesn't work out, there are still two others that might. If Burrow doesn't work out, we're royally screwed.

It comes down to what the Bengals believe Joe Burrow is. If they believe he is the best QB in this draft and has the potential to be an elite type QB, the choice becomes pretty easy. You simply don't pass up the opportunity take a player that you think will be a game changing talent at the most important position on the field...regardless of how good a trade offer might be.

If they don't believe those things about Burrow, then it's a different story.

(02-25-2020, 04:10 PM)kevin Wrote: They do not adjust to the speed of NFL until they are on the field.

But adjusting to the speed of the game is not the only thing a college QB has to learn.

A rookie QB actually does learn a lot while sitting the first year, but since most top QB prospects go to teams that don't have a good QB the team has nothing to lose by allowing the rookie to "learn on the job".

A lot more rookie QBs start now than thy used to, but you still usually see a big improvement in the second year.

(02-25-2020, 04:15 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: It comes down to what the Bengals believe Joe Burrow is. If they believe he is the best QB in this draft and had the potential to be an elite type QB, the choice becomes pretty easy. You simply don't pass up the opportunity take a player that you think will be a game changing talent at the most important position on the field.

If they don't believe those things about Burrow, then it's a different story. They would have to weigh all their options.

With a potential trade in mind, to me the question is a bit different. It would - besides "how good is he", of course - be "How much 'better' is Burrow compared to Herbert/Tua". If this percieved gap is significant, he's the pick. If this gap isn't all that wide, trading down a few spots and possibly getting two other high picks for it might be a reasonable way to go.

Admittedly, I have doubts if any draft prospect -except really exceptional ones - can be seen as a safe bet. No hating on him in any way, but Burrow to me doesn't seem to be safe beyond any doubt. In that light, as I said, I'd rather have three lottery tickets than one.

(02-25-2020, 04:29 PM)hollodero Wrote: With a potential trade in mind, to me the question is a bit different. It would - besides "how good is he", of course - be "How much 'better' is Burrow compared to Herbert/Tua". If this percieved gap is significant, he's the pick. If this gap isn't all that wide, trading down a few spots and possibly getting two other high picks for it might be a reasonable way to go.

Admittedly, I have doubts if any draft prospect -except really exceptional ones - can be seen as a safe bet. No hating on him in any way, but Burrow to me doesn't seem to be safe beyond any doubt. In that light, as I said, I'd rather have three lottery tickets than one.

Duke said earlier that it's 'doubtful' they trade the pick. I think that's an interesting statement for him to make publicly at this point, and it probably means they've already made the decision that there is a sizable enough gap between Burrow and the other QB's.

(02-25-2020, 04:41 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Duke said earlier that it's 'doubtful' they trade the pick. I think that's an important statement for him to make publicly at this point, and it probably means they've already made the decision that there is a sizable enough gap between Burrow and the other QB's.

Fair enough. I have little doubt Burrow is the pick. And I'm sceptically positive about that. Just as a thought experiment I'd guess if Miami offered their three first rounders, one would at least have to consider it.

Also, I'm proud how bravely I disregard that this thread is about Chase Young and not three Miami picks. So to this topic, I don't want Chase Young. My sophisticated reason is that in almost all videos I saw of him, his belly hangs out, and that just looks goofy.

(02-25-2020, 03:43 PM)kevin Wrote: Another reason to draft Joe Heisman is Paul Brown Stadium is empty.  MONEY is a big part of PRO Football.  Right now nobody will be buying season tickets to see the worst team in the NFL.   However drafting Joe Heisman could be the biggest selling NFL Jersey this summer and Sell Some Tickets and Put Fans In The Stands. 

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the crux of the argument. Defensive Ends, no matter how good, do not sell tickets like a hot commodity Quarterback. 

(02-25-2020, 02:41 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I dunno. I think passing on stars gets criticized a hell of a lot more than drafting busts does.

For example, Chicago isn't criticized so much for drafting Trubisky as much as they are for not drafting Mahomes or Watson.

Drafting busts is just part of the game. But God have mercy on those who pass on future stars. You hear much more about how every team passed on Tom Brady and Lamar Jackson and less about the time the Jaguars drafted Blaine Gabbert.

But maybe that's just a perceptual difference.

Blaine Gabbert strikes a chord with me.  I thought at the time there is no way on earth a QB named Blaine Gabbert could succeed in the NFL, not with that dorky sounding name...sorry Blaine. 
Then there was Andre Smith and his man boobs flopping in the breeze during his sprints.  Tell me how the Bengals could pick him after seeing that?

(02-25-2020, 05:12 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Blaine Gabbert strikes a chord with me.  I thought at the time there is no way on earth a QB named Blaine Gabbert could succeed in the NFL, not with that dorky sounding name...sorry Blaine. 
Then there was Andre Smith and his man boobs flopping in the breeze during his sprints.  Tell me how the Bengals could pick him after seeing that?

I mean, the reason could be that it's really not about dorky names or manboobs. Just a thought.