(02-27-2020, 04:37 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Interesting. I'd be curious to see some other numbers, if anyone is ambitious and generous enough to find them.

-PFF grade for position
-Pressures allowed
-Rushing Grade

My eyes told me he was again below average. Pehaps not as bad as the season prior, but a player we'd be better off without. But maybe my eyes were wrong.

T Bobby Hart 6th season 1,086 snaps 8 penalties 6 sacks 57.7 grade


It's been a minute since I read PFF's ranking but it seems like a 65 grade is considered an average starter ?

Big picture I think this team needs major improvements across the board. Feel every Bengals player we mention here fans say he’s not that bad or he might develop or the reason he played bad was because he was playing hurt. It’s true some players aren’t as bad as fans say but there not good enough and significant upgrades can be made. There’s a reason this team had the worse record in the league and hasn’t made the playoffs since 2015.

(02-27-2020, 05:33 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I predict he’s in the lower 50% of tackles in the league in all those stats. Just mediocre isn’t good enough for me if the team wants to win a Super Bowl.

The tough part is so many fans started not by disliking Hart, but hating him or thinking he was the worst starting OT ever.

I saw an OL improve as the year went on and that is always the tough part. Was it worse competition or major improvement or combo of both? Was it just young guys getting better with every snap?

I don't know, but I do know it would be easy if the OL was bad the last half of the season, but they were not, they were bad the first half. 

Call me crazy, but I want a stellar guard like Scherff added prior to a new OT. I like the combo of Glenn, Williams, Hart and Johnson heading into camp. I see OG as the issue as Hopkins is also progressing well. I could see Williams flipping to RT and keeping Glenn at LT or Glenn moving to RT. I like Johnson and can see him getting better with experience and I think Hart has improved as well.

How many sacks an offensive lineman gives up doesn't tell the entire story. That's like judging how good of a fielder a shortstop is based on the number of errors he has.

Sacks given up doesn't take into account other "bad" things an offensive lineman does and other "good" things an offensive lineman does. I couldn't tell you if Bobby Hart is good or not but it's going to take a lot more than sacks given up to determine that.

(02-27-2020, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2019 Bobby Hart played 92 more snaps than he did in 2018 (1086 to 994), but even more important the Bengals had 85 more passing plays (attempts + sacks) than 2018 (664 to 579).  Yet Hart only allowed about a third as many sacks in 2019 as 2018 (4 to 11.5) and he cut his penalties in half (12 to 6).  Only 2 of Harts 6 penalties were holding.

There were 64 players that started at least 8 games as an OT last year and played at least 500 snaps.  If you look at snaps per (sacks allowed + holding penalties) Hart ranked 13th among those 64.  He also ranked 25th in sacks per snap. 


https://www.milehighreport.com/2020/2/18/21142328/2019-offensive-line-pass-blocking-review 

Since stats on O-linemen are kind of obscure I think a lot of people hate Hart based on 2018.  I am starting to see why the Bengals had faith in him.

I was expecting a joke to be attached to this when i opened up the thread. To be honest, Bobby Hart is a punching bag for most Bengals fans. He would have to have a pro bowl season to change the perception.

(02-27-2020, 05:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Johnson is Westerman v2.0.  Plays one game and everyone falls in love with him.  Johnson won't be starting for the Bengals in 2020 unless it is due to injury.

I think he may surprise you...

(02-27-2020, 05:56 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: T Bobby Hart 6th season 1,086 snaps 8 penalties 6 sacks 57.7 grade


It's been a minute since I read PFF's ranking but it seems like a 65 grade is considered an average starter ?

I pulled this from a quick google seach, not sure if it's still accurate.


[/url]



PFF

@PFF

·
[url=https://mobile.twitter.com/PFF/status/652583704800444416]Oct 9, 2015


The Player Grading Scale:
100-90 Elite
89-85 Pro Bowler
84-70 Starter
69-60 Backup
59-0 Replaceable

(02-27-2020, 05:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Johnson is Westerman v2.0.  Plays one game and everyone falls in love with him.  Johnson won't be starting for the Bengals in 2020 unless it is due to injury.

I agree way to small a sample size versus a train wreck Browns team without Myles Garret. Wouldn’t be surprised one bit if an undrafted practice squad player didn’t workout out. With that being said I like the pickup,I rather have a young tackle with upside then Andre Smith or John Jerry.

(02-27-2020, 06:51 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I think he may surprise you...

I hope he does.

I am not trying to start a Bobby Hart fan club or anything.  I just think he is one of those guys who fans have decided to hate no matter how well he plays.

(02-27-2020, 07:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I hope he does.

I am not trying to start a Bobby Hart fan club or anything.  I just think he is one of those guys who fans have decided to hate no matter how well he plays.

he made a pretty big improvement from 18 to 19... Lets see where the trend goes in 20.

(02-27-2020, 06:19 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Was it worse competition or major improvement or combo of both?

It was 100% because of worse competition.

First 9 games: 6 games against winning teams
Final 7 games: 1 game against winning teams

In the final 7 games, they played 5 games against teams picking in the Top 12 in the draft. The only winning team they played, crushed them 34-13.

(02-27-2020, 05:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Johnson is Westerman v2.0.  Plays one game and everyone falls in love with him.  Johnson won't be starting for the Bengals in 2020 unless it is due to injury.

No, he played two games and looked better than anybody who played Tackle in 2019...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

(02-27-2020, 04:35 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Grading Oline isn’t just sacks + penalties. How many hurries did he give up? How many assignments did he miss? There are also new metrics like pass block/run block win rates. What were Mixons splits when running left versus running right? How often did Hart get help from the TE?

This^^^^^

(02-27-2020, 06:19 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The tough part is so many fans started not by disliking Hart, but hating him or thinking he was the worst starting OT ever.

(02-27-2020, 07:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I hope he does.

I am not trying to start a Bobby Hart fan club or anything.  I just think he is one of those guys who fans have decided to hate no matter how well he plays.

It's because he was terrible in 2018 and overpaid going into 2019.

So yeah.  He's gonna get some dislike/hate piled on him.

I presume if he had played "well" the whole season fans would have lightened up.

Unfortunately no matter how you look at it 2019 players are judged for a whole season.

Add that up with the fact that Bobby Hart has never had a good season even prior to being on the Bengals.

I think I remember seeing only one player from our whole O-Line(Hopkins?)being graded at a "starter level" from last season's stats.

Like others have said.  He might be okay for a backup.  Not for what he's getting paid though.

(02-27-2020, 05:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lower 50% of "starting" tackles, right?

Yes

(02-27-2020, 07:31 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: It's because he was terrible in 2018 and overpaid going into 2019.

So yeah.  He's gonna get some dislike/hate piled on him.

I presume if he had played "well" the whole season fans would have lightened up.

Unfortunately no matter how you look at it 2019 players are judged for a whole season.

Add that up with the fact that Bobby Hart has never had a good season even prior to being on the Bengals.

I think I remember seeing only one player from our whole O-Line(Hopkins?)being graded at a "starter level" from last season's stats.

Like others have said.  He might be okay for a backup.  Not for what he's getting paid though.

I stated there was hatred, never said no reasons why.

The bolded opinion you stated would have more texture if you provided facts. What is the average salary for a starting RT in the NFL? A backup? What is his over paid salary he was paid versus the average?

I just wish general comments of opinion would be back up by facts when possible which in this case is very doable

I've been a heavy critic of Bobby Hart, and after his 2018 performance, with good reason. However, the OP does have a point as Hart improved from one year to the next. If he can improve as much this season, as he did last season, we might just feel like the team is getting their money's worth out of him.

(02-27-2020, 07:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It was 100% because of worse competition.

First 9 games: 6 games against winning teams
Final 7 games: 1 game against winning teams

In the final 7 games, they played 5 games against teams picking in the Top 12 in the draft. The only winning team they played, crushed them 34-13.

Doesn't matter. We still had to play well to beat the 2 teams we beat. 

(02-27-2020, 08:24 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I've been a heavy critic of Bobby Hart, and after his 2018 performance, with good reason.  However, the OP does have a point as Hart improved from one year to the next.  If he can improve as much this season, as he did last season, we might just feel like the team is getting their money's worth out of him.

The truth is Hart is one of the lowest vet (2nd contract or more) starting RT's in the league. Top tier make almost 3x as much, mid 2x as much.

So, no he is not overpaid for a starting RT

Hart would be an adequate RT backup in the NFL...during eclipses.

Bengals need to raise the bar of expectations for the OL and not settle for "good enough".

If Burrow is selected this year, Bengals need to establish the run and need to upgrade both guard positions. One via FA and one via draft.

Johnson may be able to compete at RT but if for some reason J. Williams cannot go or fails at LT, they could kick JW inside where arm reach is not an issue. Bengals still need another OT. Prince is not the answer.