(02-27-2020, 06:45 PM)WhoDey Wrote: I was expecting a joke to be attached to this when i opened up the thread. To be honest, Bobby Hart is a punching bag for most Bengals fans. He would have to have a pro bowl season to change the perception.

True, but Hart often fails the eye test. Billy Price fails it just about every time. 

(02-27-2020, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2019 Bobby Hart played 92 more snaps than he did in 2018 (1086 to 994), but even more important the Bengals had 85 more passing plays (attempts + sacks) than 2018 (664 to 579).  Yet Hart only allowed about a third as many sacks in 2019 as 2018 (4 to 11.5) and he cut his penalties in half (12 to 6).  Only 2 of Harts 6 penalties were holding.

There were 64 players that started at least 8 games as an OT last year and played at least 500 snaps.  If you look at snaps per (sacks allowed + holding penalties) Hart ranked 13th among those 64.  He also ranked 25th in sacks per snap. 


https://www.milehighreport.com/2020/2/18/21142328/2019-offensive-line-pass-blocking-review 

Since stats on O-linemen are kind of obscure I think a lot of people hate Hart based on 2018.  I am starting to see why the Bengals had faith in him.

And he still sucks....  There is a reason running to the right was rare for this team. Blobby was getting the RBs blown up like cazy..

(02-27-2020, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2019 Bobby Hart played 92 more snaps than he did in 2018 (1086 to 994), but even more important the Bengals had 85 more passing plays (attempts + sacks) than 2018 (664 to 579).  Yet Hart only allowed about a third as many sacks in 2019 as 2018 (4 to 11.5) and he cut his penalties in half (12 to 6).  Only 2 of Harts 6 penalties were holding.

There were 64 players that started at least 8 games as an OT last year and played at least 500 snaps.  If you look at snaps per (sacks allowed + holding penalties) Hart ranked 13th among those 64.  He also ranked 25th in sacks per snap. 


https://www.milehighreport.com/2020/2/18/21142328/2019-offensive-line-pass-blocking-review 

Since stats on O-linemen are kind of obscure I think a lot of people hate Hart based on 2018.  I am starting to see why the Bengals had faith in him.

I wouldn't say he had a very good season, as he is not a very good OT.  He had a very good improvement from one season to the next, and he is STILL just 25 years old.  That being said, I am glad they have Johnson to push him for a starting position.  That guy seems to be a real find thus far.  If they focus on upgrading the two guard positions in FA and the draft, the line could start to become competitive. 

I am still really hoping for a two-year, incentive-laden deal for Whit at LG and a fairly high draft pick to push Miller and possibly replace him.  

Signing Thuney would be a huge win, although I really don't see them ponying up 60 million over 5 years for a guard.  If they did, though, they could trade of release Miller and that money could offset the expense of the contract.  

(02-27-2020, 04:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The stat I would really like to see is the NextGen "Pass blocking win percentage".  It uses the GPS tracking devices on the individual players to determine when a pass rusher gets closer to the QB than the pass blocker.  The split is 2.5 seconds.  The blocker wins if he holds his block longer.  The rusher wins if he gets by the blocker before that.  Unfortunately all I can find is the top ten for OTs and Hart is not among them.

THAT is pretty damn cool.  Can't wait to see that.

Hart still stinks. I don’t care what stats you throw at me all I see is a guy can’t run block worth a damn and who’s pas blocking is just good enough so Dalton can make those quick throws. Hart improved from the year before though I’ll give him that. But I won’t act like our o line is ready to win a super bowl . We have the number 1 Pick for a reason , let’s not pretend our offensive line is headed in the right direction just because Mixon played well the stretch. Fred can you put up stats to make the corona virus appear good

(02-27-2020, 09:46 PM)Tony Wrote: And he still sucks....  There is a reason running to the right was rare for this team. Blobby was getting the RBs blown up like cazy..

don't let your personal bias show.  its not a good look

(02-27-2020, 05:03 PM)MEBengalsFan Wrote: Hart isn't a top quality RT. He isn't as bad as we all feel he is though. He is a average to below average RT. Meaning 50% of the teams in the NFL would gladly take him as their starting tackle. Good team wouldn't give him the salary the Bengals did a year ago. He is worth roughly about 60-75% of what the Bengals paid him. If he continues to improve, and I think that is their thinking, he could end up being a solid RT holding down the right side. With Williams on the left that would be a good combo for any QB. With the C being decent improve play on the left and right side would improve the interior play as well.

This is probably why Callahan said what he said....I believe he knows the team needs to upgrade their guard position but what the Bengals have is an average OL, that is if Williams can play to a high level.

I appreciate Fred's post and this take on their plan.  They're looking at Hart having the leg up on Johnson, and taking a tackle when the talent starts to match the selection as BPA (look for overdrafts/reaches early).  They really need to pay for Joe Thuney to fix LG and be a fallback for the possibility of Williams or the right side struggling.  If MJ or Price play well, they're still in the mix for PT but not given anything.  RT isn't the dumpster fire we elude to, but Trey Hopkins is the only known B level player on the line and we need more.  I can't see them using a high level resource to upgrade RT and it won't fall into their lap due to league need.  Get Thuney, be content with the right side and have an open draft.   

I've seen a lot of people praising guys like Glenn, Hopkins and Hart. If these guys all played well, why did we give up 48 sacks? Why were we 24th in YPC? If Hart only gave up 4 sacks, that means the other 4 spots gave up 44 sacks, which is terrible.

Either way, I hope you're right about Hart, because I don't think he's going anywhere.

(02-27-2020, 09:46 PM)Tony Wrote: And he still sucks....  There is a reason running to the right was rare for this team. Blobby was getting the RBs blown up like cazy..

Classic Bengal board post.

In 2019 Bengals ran more often to the right (142) than the left (120), and the average running over RT was exactly the same as running over LT (3.6).

I post stats showing that Hart gave up fewer sacks per snap than most of the starting tackles in the league, but fans don't care.  They have decided that Hart sucks.  Even if he gives up zero sacks and commits zero penalties they still consider him a back up.

"Well it looked like we were running a lot more to the left and it looked like Hart was allowing a lot more sacks, so I am going to make believe it really happened.  Derp.  I don't care what actually happened on the field.  No matter how well Hart plays he really sucks."

(02-27-2020, 07:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It was 100% because of worse competition.

First 9 games: 6 games against winning teams
Final 7 games: 1 game against winning teams

In the final 7 games, they played 5 games against teams picking in the Top 12 in the draft. The only winning team they played, crushed them 34-13.

1st half of the year they played 5 games with teams in the top 6 in total defense in the league and 3 teams in the bottom 10 in total defense and in the 2nd half they played 4 games with teams in the top 7 in total defense and 1 team in the bottom 10 in total defense (Browns were 1 spot outside the bottom 10) so I don't think you're giving the running game as much credit as you should....

(02-28-2020, 01:54 PM)higgy100 Wrote: 1st half of the year they played 5 games with teams in the top 6 in total defense in the league and 3 teams in the bottom 10 in total defense and in the 2nd half they played 4 games with teams in the top 7 in total defense and 1 team in the bottom 10 in total defense (Browns were 1 spot outside the bottom 10) so I don't think you're giving the running game as much credit as you should....

If you look closer, you'll realize that in the final 4 weeks of the season, they played the...

30th ranked rush defense
6th ranked rush defense
27th ranked rush defense
30th ranked rush defense

They were successful running against the 6th ranked rush defense because the Patriots were happy to allow the Bengals to run the ball in a game the Bengals lost by 3 scores.

Even if you only focus on the 2nd half of the year, the Bengals still couldn't score even 20 points per game. Despite being lifted by a 35 point game against the 32nd scoring defense.

So I think you're giving the running game more credit than you should. It basically just beat up on the Browns twice and then Zac Taylor kept running the ball in the Ravens/Patriots games that they lost 83-26. Both teams were more than happy to allow the Bengals to run it and end the game faster.

(02-28-2020, 02:58 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: If you look closer, you'll realize that in the final 4 weeks of the season, they played the...

30th ranked rush defense
6th ranked rush defense
27th ranked rush defense
30th ranked rush defense

They were successful running against the 6th ranked rush defense because the Patriots were happy to allow the Bengals to run the ball in a game the Bengals lost by 3 scores.

Even if you only focus on the 2nd half of the year, the Bengals still couldn't score even 20 points per game. Despite being lifted by a 35 point game against the 32nd scoring defense.

So I think you're giving the running game more credit than you should. It basically just beat up on the Browns twice and then Zac Taylor kept running the ball in the Ravens/Patriots games that they lost 83-26. Both teams were more than happy to allow the Bengals to run it and end the game faster.

It is amazing how far some people will go in order to try an shit on the Bengals.

First half of the season we also played the 24th ranked run defense (Arizona) and the 28th (Jacksonville) and we only had a combined 141 rushing yards in those two games.

We did play the Browns twice in the second half of the season and in both of those games we gained more rushing yards than 11 of their other 14 opponents.  We are not the only team that played weak defenses and we did better against the Browns weak run defense than all but three other teams.

And if the Patriots are "happy" to give up rushing yards in blowout wins why did the Steelers only get 33 in a 30 point loss, or the dolphins 42 in a 43 point loss, or the Jets an average of 57 in two losses by a combined 63-14?

You also ignore the fact that the Raiders had the #8 rush defense in the league and we rushed for 173 against them in a close game.  Only one other team ran for more yards against them all season.

Bobby Hart IS overpaid and IS garbage. I will give you maybe he improved from a standpoint of should not even be in the league, to maybe improving to being a backup Tackle, but that is about it. The Bengals didn't get their first official rushing Touchdown last year until what week 10 last year? Remind me which side of the line should be the strongest run blockers again? It also seemed every chance he had on 3rd and long he was either getting beat completely or giving up pressures and hurries. I remember many times last season screaming he is the worst Tackle in the NFL, this is the worst O-Line in NFL history, and Mr. Hart was always front and center in most of that screaming frustration.

(02-27-2020, 05:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Johnson is Westerman v2.0.  Plays one game and everyone falls in love with him.  Johnson won't be starting for the Bengals in 2020 unless it is due to injury.

No he is not, Westerman was a LG, Fred Johnson is an OT and are completely different people.

(02-27-2020, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2019 Bobby Hart played 92 more snaps than he did in 2018 (1086 to 994), but even more important the Bengals had 85 more passing plays (attempts + sacks) than 2018 (664 to 579).  Yet Hart only allowed about a third as many sacks in 2019 as 2018 (4 to 11.5) and he cut his penalties in half (12 to 6).  Only 2 of Harts 6 penalties were holding.

There were 64 players that started at least 8 games as an OT last year and played at least 500 snaps.  If you look at snaps per (sacks allowed + holding penalties) Hart ranked 13th among those 64.  He also ranked 25th in sacks per snap. 


https://www.milehighreport.com/2020/2/18/21142328/2019-offensive-line-pass-blocking-review 

Since stats on O-linemen are kind of obscure I think a lot of people hate Hart based on 2018.  I am starting to see why the Bengals had faith in him.

Don’t pro bowlers have very good seasons. Hart simply had a better season. Nowhere near a very good season. This is fake news

PFF had Hart rated as the 67th ranked OT in the league last year.
Overall rating 57.7.
68.7 in pass blocking, 46.3 in run blocking.

You all would be begging for Hart back at RT if we let Isaiah Prince start a few games in his place.

(02-28-2020, 05:00 PM)ochocincos Wrote: PFF had Hart rated as the 67th ranked OT in the league last year.
Overall rating 57.7.
68.7 in pass blocking, 46.3 in run blocking.

PFF said Andy Dalton was better in 2018 than in 2015.

In 2015 Dre Kirkpatrick played 97% of the snaps on the #5 pass defense in the league and finished in the top 30 in almost all objective stats (comp% allowed, yards per target, success rate) yet PFF had him as the 114th ranked CB behind a ton of scrubs who barely saw the field.


PFF keeps track of some interesting stats, but their individual rankings are subjective and highly flawed.

(02-27-2020, 07:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I hope he does.

I am not trying to start a Bobby Hart fan club or anything.  I just think he is one of those guys who fans have decided to hate no matter how well he plays.

And gosh darn it Stuart Smalley, you’re here to prove those people wrong no matter what


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(02-28-2020, 06:40 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Trey Hopkins 5th season 1,097 snaps 2 penalties 4 sacks grade 62.4


G John Jerry 10th season 445 snaps 2 penalties 8 sacks 55.6 grade
G Michael Jordan 2nd season 648 snaps 6 penalties 6 sacks 43.7 grade
G John Miller 6th season 779 snaps 3 penalties 2 sacks 58.6 grade

T Fred Johnson 2nd season 144 snaps 2 penalties 0 sacks 62.6 grade
T Cordy Glenn 9th season 291 snaps 0 penalties 4 sacks 68.4 grade
T Bobby Hart 6th season 1,086 snaps 8 penalties 6 sacks 57.7 grade
T Isaiah Prince 2nd season 70 snaps 2 penalties 1 sack 45.6 grade
T Jonah Williams 2nd season N/A


This is why the Bengals were the worst team in the league.  The entire line needs to be upgraded.
Hart sucks.  He would not start on any playoff team.  Is that not the goal?