(02-29-2020, 09:25 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Vigil isn't as bad as some make him out to be, famous Bengal board line. But really it's true

Can his position be  upgraded ? sure But he's not a bad guy to have around to rotate in, 3rd LBer when they use one, whatever. I hope they do keep him as backup up if nothing else.

I dont think anyone would be complaining if vigil was just a backup. That's where he belongs

(03-08-2020, 03:44 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: The eye test had way more to do with him not tackling. 

(03-08-2020, 03:45 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: I dont think anyone would be complaining if vigil was just a backup. That's where he belongs

True, like Hart he would be a good backup.

He’s definitely just a back up. The eye ball test when he misses tackles or gets juked out of his shoes tells me he’s not a starter n easily replaceable.

Kwiatkoski LB from Chicago looks like a solid addition via free agency. Guy can tackle.

(03-08-2020, 05:23 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Kwiatkoski LB from Chicago looks like a solid addition via free agency.  Guy can tackle.

So, just what about Nick Kwiatkoski says that he's so much better than Vigil?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KwiaNi00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VigiNi00.htm

Statistically speaking, they're pretty evenly paired.

Well he only started half the season comparable to Vigil. Due to Trevethon being injured halfway through. But quick stats since u through them out there. Vigil 60 solo tackle 3 tackles for loss. Nick had 56 solo n 8 tackles for loss in half the games. I saw the Bears 3 times last year n was impressed when I watched this guy.

(03-08-2020, 09:11 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Well he only started half the season comparable to Vigil.  Due to Trevethon being injured halfway through.  But quick stats since u through them out there.  Vigil 60 solo tackle 3 tackles for loss.  Nick had 56 solo n 8 tackles for loss in half the games.  I saw the Bears 3 times last year n was impressed  when I watched this guy.

When responding to someone's post, it's customary to use the "quote post" function, as otherwise it looks like your talking to the air..

Anyway, stats show that Kwiatkoski played in 16 games, even though he only "started" 8.  Do you thinks it's possible for a guy to gain stats in games that he plays in, but didn't start?  

And, if you only watched 3 Bears games, and declared Kwiatkoski a sure bet?  What if someone else only watched 3 Bengal games in the second half of the season, and determined that Vigil was a decent player?  

Not trying to dog on your opinion, just wanting to point out that if the Bengals go after a guy that is about the same level of player as we already have, it really doesn't do much to improve the quality of the roster.

(03-08-2020, 05:12 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: He’s definitely just a back up. The eye ball test when he misses tackles or gets juked out of his shoes tells me he’s not a starter n easily replaceable.

I think literally everyone on defense not named Carlos, Andrew, Sam, and MAYBE Darius failed the eyeball test last year.

(03-08-2020, 05:12 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: He’s definitely just a back up.   The eye ball test when he misses tackles or gets juked out of his shoes tells me he’s not a starter n easily replaceable.

All LBs get juked out of their shoes and I saw the great Ray Lewis miss a tackle or two during a game. 

(03-08-2020, 09:49 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: When responding to someone's post, it's customary to use the "quote post" function, as otherwise it looks like your talking to the air..

Anyway, stats show that Kwiatkoski played in 16 games, even though he only "started" 8.  Do you thinks it's possible for a guy to gain stats in games that he plays in, but didn't start?  

And, if you only watched 3 Bears games, and declared Kwiatkoski a sure bet?  What if someone else only watched 3 Bengal games in the second half of the season, and determined that Vigil was a decent player?  

Not trying to dog on your opinion, just wanting to point out that if the Bengals go after a guy that is about the same level of player as we already have, it really doesn't do much to improve the quality of the roster.

He played more than 50% of the defensive snaps in 9 total games and in 6 of them total over 90%.

(03-08-2020, 10:13 PM)sandwedge Wrote: All LBs get juked out of their shoes and I saw the great Ray Lewis miss a tackle or two during a game. 

Yes I know this but Vigil has a habit of doing this. I get it no matter what there’s homers that think every player on this team are great , whether it’s Artrell Hawkins , Maualuga , Fisher , Cook there were even people defending Ogbuehi in his 5th year saying he was misplaced at Right tackle.

Vigil is definitely upgradable whether it’s Nick or whoever.

(03-08-2020, 10:13 PM)sandwedge Wrote: All LBs get juked out of their shoes and I saw the great Ray Lewis miss a tackle or two during a game. 

Imagine comparing Nick Vigil to Ray Lewis in any way...


You were gonna make your point no matter what you had to say weren’t you? Lol

Vigil's okay. Our big issue was more our goofy approach to the front seven than any major defect in Vigil. Both last year and the year before he frequently was essentially the only LB out there (scheme last year surrounded by horrible players year before).

(03-08-2020, 11:57 PM)Housh Wrote: Imagine comparing Nick Vigil to Ray Lewis in any way...


You were gonna make your point no matter what you had to say weren’t you? Lol

Just to win a arguments.

But since I’ve been a kid the only good linebackers we have had are Francis , Spikes , Simmons and Burfict. Dang. We need to change how we draft them.

Completion % is a very weird stat to judge a linebacker off of. Guys with great speed and tackling may be better off allowing catches before the sticks then just making the tackle. Let’s say a linebacker plays mostly 3rd downs. It’s possible he could allow a 70% completion % against him but only give up a first down 10% of the time. By the stat Fred gave that guy would look like one of the worst linebackers in the league.

This is why I’m weary of anyone using stats as a way to prove something. A guy like Vigil is not really exceptionalLy fast or strong so hes likely in this bracket simply because he’s not being asked to do what a Luke Keuchley is. Also I don’t doubt that Nick Vigil plays extremely hard every play due to job security. This probably masks some of his shortcomings. Luke is a guy your having guard elite talent because he’s great. Honestly the fact that Luke and Nick are in the same ball park on this stat is not good on Vigils part. It’s actually pretty bad and does nothing but prove his mediocrity.

(03-08-2020, 10:20 PM)Synric Wrote: He played more than 50% of the defensive snaps in 9 total games and in 6 of them total over 90%.

He is a very intriguing player.  He sucked until this year, but when he got a chance to play due to injured started he came off the bench and looked great.  Not they are saying he will get 7-8 million a year as a free agent.

(03-10-2020, 09:57 AM)Housh Wrote: Completion % is a very weird stat to judge a linebacker off of. Guys with great speed and tackling may be better off allowing catches before the sticks then just making the tackle. Let’s say a linebacker plays mostly 3rd downs. It’s possible he could allow a 70% completion % against him but only give up a first down 10% of the time. By the stat Fred gave that guy would look like one of the worst linebackers in the league.

It is not completion percentage.  It is passer rating allowed.  It takes into account completion percentage, yards per reception, interceptions, and td allowed.


Footballoutsiders has a good stat called "stop percentage" that ranks yards allowed based on down and distance.  For instance allowing a 4 yard reception on first and ten would be a stop, but not on third and three.  I won't see that stat until the release their almanac later this year. 

(03-10-2020, 09:57 AM)Housh Wrote: Completion % is a very weird stat to judge a linebacker off of. Guys with great speed and tackling may be better off allowing catches before the sticks then just making the tackle. Let’s say a linebacker plays mostly 3rd downs. It’s possible he could allow a 70% completion % against him but only give up a first down 10% of the time. By the stat Fred gave that guy would look like one of the worst linebackers in the league.

This is why I’m weary of anyone using stats as a way to prove something. A guy like Vigil is not really exceptionalLy fast or strong so hes likely in this bracket simply because he’s not being asked to do what a Luke Keuchley is. Also I don’t doubt that Nick Vigil plays extremely hard every play due to job security. This probably masks some of his shortcomings. Luke is a guy your having guard elite talent because he’s great. Honestly the fact that Luke and Nick are in the same ball park on this stat is not good on Vigils part. It’s actually pretty bad and does nothing but prove his mediocrity.

lawl

You state:

Quote:This is why I’m weary of anyone using stats as a way to prove something.

Then go on to say:

Quote:Honestly the fact that Luke and Nick are in the same ball park on this stat is not good on Vigils part.

Misconstruing-to-prove-your-point, much?

Not to mention, as Fred has written, it is PASSER RATING, not completion percentage, thus the entire argument either went over your head or, as I mentioned, you're misconstruing stats.

Fred only posted this to show that in coverage, Vigil is actually not as bad as we all thought (by the numbers) and is comparable to others that are not bad.

He also CLEARLY acknowledged (what almost all of us know and acknowledge) that Vigil has issues with missed tackles; now, while that clearly has to be remedied, playing 2 games a year against Lamar Jackson will screw up your MT numbers.

(03-10-2020, 12:21 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: lawl

You state:


Then go on to say:


Misconstruing-to-prove-your-point, much?

Not to mention, as Fred has written, it is PASSER RATING, not completion percentage, thus the entire argument either went over your head or, as I mentioned, you're misconstruing stats.

Fred only posted this to show that in coverage, Vigil is actually not as bad as we all thought (by the numbers) and is comparable to others that are not bad.

He also CLEARLY acknowledged (what almost all of us know and acknowledge) that Vigil has issues with missed tackles; now, while that clearly has to be remedied, playing 2 games a year against Lamar Jackson will screw up your MT numbers.

I guess it comes down to if you believe finishing the play is part of coverage.

If I had a corner that had great coverage but couldn’t tackle I’d still play him

But a linebacker that can’t tackle is not a good look

(03-10-2020, 04:32 PM)Housh Wrote: I guess it comes down to if you believe finishing the play is part of coverage.

If I had a corner that had great coverage but couldn’t tackle I’d still play him

But a linebacker that can’t tackle is not a good look

Passer rating allowed takes into account yards allowed. So that takes missed tackles into account. So even with the extra yards allowed from missed tackles he still ranks among the league leaders.