Horrid decisions on kick off returns all day.

we just need to teach his ass that the 20 is NOT the 10 yard line when bringing it out of the back of the endzone!

Tate as a Bengal Career Stat Line:

Tate has had 268 combined punt and kickoff returns.
Tate has had 4562 Combined punt and kickoff return yards.
Tate has averaged 17.02 yards per return.
Tate has had 1 combined TD from punt and kickoffs.
Tate has had 11 combined fumbles on punt and kickoff returns.

This is the weakest single spot on the Bengals roster and needs upgraded.

http://www.nfl.com/player/brandontate/81306/careerstats

Dude's just not very good. Making one good catch a year doesn't make up for it. 

(10-09-2015, 01:10 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote:  Sure, that play was pretty incredible but I don't think it diminishes the years of questionable efforts he has given.

Yep. Nailed that one. 

(10-12-2015, 11:24 PM)RASCAL Wrote: we just need to teach his ass that the 20 is NOT the 10 yard line when bringing it out of the back of the endzone!

You would of thunk coaches would of said something after the first... or even second time. But it happened a third, so no such thing happened it seems. I get the first time. But when you do the same thing three times with similar results, you need to re-evaluate some things.

Either the coaches are stupid for letting a non-dynamic returner taking it out from the very back of the endzone time and time again, or Tate is stupid for doing so.

The Tate defenders seem to be a lot of the guys that blindly defend the coaching staff, sooooooooo, who do you throw under the bus in this situation?

We don't have mid-2000's Devin Hester back there, we can't pretend those were good decisions.

(10-12-2015, 10:49 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Horrid decisions on kick off returns all day.

Exactly. I have long assumed that he has some dirt on Marvin, and that's why he gets to play.

Early in his career, it seemed like he fumbled constantly. As recently as last year, he put a game totally out of reach by coming out of the end zone, getting leveled at the 10, and fumbling it for a TD. Then this week (the first game this year I have been able to watch, instead of listen to) he came out of the end zone constantly and made it to the 20 once?

Some points that we discussed with Tate returning kickoffs out of the end zone:
1. When he makes it to the 10 or 15 instead of the 20 that he would have been handed for free, it's like having an offensive lineman who starts every drive with a holding penalty or a false start. The yardage loss is the same, but one would be viewed as totally unacceptable while the many turn a blind eye to Tate. This bad field position (an extra 12.5% of the field to go) affects the offense, defense, and special teams and takes points off the board by turning TDs into field goals, field goals into punts, and punts into less effective punts, giving the defense less room for error.

2. The turnover potential when getting slammed at the ten is overlooked any time there isn't actually a turnover. But the chance of a turnover goes from virtually zero by kneeling in the end zone to pretty damned significant when you run straight into a swarm of defenders.

3. The risk of injury to your entire team by adding unnecessary plays and simultaneously stretching your field. Take a knee, the whistle blows, play over. Start at the 20. Pretty simple, right? Tate runs out, doesn't follow blocks, gets plowed before reaching the 20, and risks injury to himself and his teammates by simply being stupid. One more bad play, one more chance for a dirty hit, and never anything to show for it. Then you make the offense have to run more plays to pick up the yards you lost for them. I know I'm not the only who cringes every time a lineman gets rolled up on, and Tate's piss-poor returns cause it to happen more on every drive. Football is an inherently dangerous sport, but there's a reason teams take a knee to close out games. If taking a knee nets you ten more yards than you could have run for, why not do it?


As mentioned previously, Jones is a different story. He deserves the benefit of the doubt (on the field). Tate's best kick returns are touchbacks. Every other time, he risks giving up points, turning the ball over, and hurting his teammates.

(10-12-2015, 10:49 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Horrid decisions on kick off returns all day.

No doubt! You would think Marvin would have said "If you catch it in the endzone take a knee or else!"

(10-13-2015, 09:14 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Either the coaches are stupid for letting a non-dynamic returner taking it out from the very back of the endzone time and time again, or Tate is stupid for doing so.

I'd have benched him in place of an open suitcase with glued-on knees a couple years ago, but I'm one of those crazy guys who thinks that 20 is better than 10.

(10-12-2015, 10:28 PM)TKUHL Wrote: At some point after the 1st or 2nd return the coach had to tell Tate to stop so A. He didnt listen and should not be trusted back there or B. He was never told by a coach. He should not be back there, didnt we draft a return guy? or does it take 3 years to develop a KR.

Obviously the coaches are not that concerned about starting at the 15 instead of the 20.  They probably think the chance to break a long one is worth starting 5 yards farther back.

Like I said before starting at the 15 instead of the 20 doesn't really change anything.  It is not like we are pinned back at the 5 yard line and have to change our play calling.  And if the offense can o 80 yards then it can probably go 85.

(10-13-2015, 11:25 AM)Ryuko Wrote: 1. When he makes it to the 10 or 15 instead of the 20 that he would have been handed for free, it's like having an offensive lineman who starts every drive with a holding penalty or a false start. The yardage loss is the same, but one would be viewed as totally unacceptable while the many turn a blind eye to Tate. This bad field position (an extra 12.5% of the field to go) affects the offense, defense, and special teams and takes points off the board by turning TDs into field goals, field goals into punts, and punts into less effective punts, giving the defense less room for error.

Starting first-and-ten at the fifteen is NOTHING like starting first-and-fifteen.  There is a big difference in the down and distance.

Starting at the 15 instead of the 20 doesn't really change the play calling at all.

(10-12-2015, 09:39 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Except not all kicks that go 8 yards deep are line drives.

Actually, very few are, even with the new rules of the ball being kicked from the 35.  When you are kicking that far, line drives typically don't hang in the air long enough to get that far or, if they do, weren't low enough in the first place to warrant taking it out.

You have this completely backwards.  There is a trade off between height and distance.  Line drive kicks travel farther.  That is why you will often here that longer field goals are easier to block.  They are kicked at a lower trajectory in order to make them travel farther.

Kick returners are often told to count from the time the ball is kicked off.  Their decision to return or not is based on how long the kick was in the air instead of how deep it goes into the end zone.

Maybe Tate's problem is that he counts to slow.

(10-13-2015, 09:14 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Either the coaches are stupid for letting a non-dynamic returner taking it out from the very back of the endzone time and time again, or Tate is stupid for doing so.

The Tate defenders seem to be a lot of the guys that blindly defend the coaching staff, sooooooooo, who do you throw under the bus in this situation?

We don't have mid-2000's Devin Hester back there, we can't pretend those were good decisions.

Fred can 

(10-14-2015, 11:15 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You have this completely backwards.  There is a trade off between height and distance.  Line drive kicks travel farther.  That is why you will often here that longer field goals are easier to block.  They are kicked at a lower trajectory in order to make them travel farther.

Kick returners are often told to count from the time the ball is kicked off.  Their decision to return or not is based on how long the kick was in the air instead of how deep it goes into the end zone.

Maybe Tate's problem is that he counts to slow.

False.  Lined kicks don't have the hang time to travel as far, or typically the force to keep the trajectory to get them that far.

Just because you kick something lower with force, doesn't mean that it has enough force to go on forever.  

Conversely, a high kick won't have the distance but will have the hang time.

With the new kicking line, taking a kickoff out from the back of the endzone isn't like it used to be.

If you want to use your counting theory, then either Tate can't count or he's just plain stupid because I doubt that the coaches would be telling him to take it out of the endzone in those situations.  

Ball security is important as well as feild position.With a 5-0 record, I wiuldn't change anything right now.

(10-14-2015, 03:23 PM)Curtis85 Wrote: Ball security is important as well as feild position.With a 5-0 record, I wiuldn't change anything right now.

Well, I agree and disagree with this.

Being 5-0 doesn't mean everything is perfect. We aren't beating teams 65-0 every week and cruising to victory with ease. There have still been mistakes made and we have a couple of glaring issues even being undefeated. With that said, I don't think I'd go out of the way to change anything right now either. The defense needs to play tighter and smarter and the offense needs to keep rolling. ST has been good but Tate needs to realize that he isn't 2009 Josh Cribbs.

Tate is in one of the positions that will need looked at over the coming offseason. He's not the absolute worst returner in the universe, but he's certainly not so good that we shouldn't bother browsing around to potentially replace.

Hell, at least McCalleb (sp?l) had the speed to make up for stupid decisions. And he'd of been cheaper.

Someone's gonna look back at Tate's year and say: "this guy averaged like 25 yards a return, why does everyone hate him?" And not have the context to understand that each of those returns started right next to the ball boys in the end zone.

Long returns are so rare nowadays there is no point in risking starting behind the 20, especially when your offense is in a 2 quarter length funk. Take the knee when you have more end zone to run than there is end zone behind you.

This would be the perfect question for Marvin.

"Why is Brandon Tate returning kicks from deep in the end zone?"

It is possible that he is doing what Marvin tells him. Like I said before, I can not see the hang time on these kicks, but the results seem to say he is not making the right decision.

(10-14-2015, 01:02 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: False.  Lined kicks don't have the hang time to travel as far, or typically the force to keep the trajectory to get them that far.

Just because you kick something lower with force, doesn't mean that it has enough force to go on forever.  

Conversely, a high kick won't have the distance but will have the hang time.

No.  You are wrong.  I am not going to argue it anymore.  I am just telling everyone to listen closely whenever a kicker is attempting a very long field goal.  Many times the announcers will mention that long field goals are easier to block because they are launched at a lower trajectory.

Many deep kick offs are line drives.