Did you guys just ban Jermaine Gresham?

You can't compare Gresham to Eifert.  http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=1&statisticPositionCategory=TIGHT_END&season=2015&seasonType=REG

Eifert ranked 3rd with Tight Ends while Gresham is sitting in the dungeon at 43rd.

In all seriousness when I see the ball thrown to Tyler I watch with excitement something great is going to happen, in the past when the ball was thrown to Gresham I would hold my breath that he would catch it or WORSE not fumble the ball when he would reach out to get a few extra yards while being tackled. (He used to do that all the time and fumble the ball as a result one too many times)

(10-13-2015, 05:35 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: That catch was a thing of beauty.  

And the pass was sick.  The coverage was tight. 

That was the type of play that championship teams make.

(10-14-2015, 09:03 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Gresham was the best TE we've had here in a reallly long time until Eifert showed up. He was good for a couple of penalties, fumbles, and drops each year (like every single other TE in the league though most want to ignore that), 

5 years, 280 catches, 2,770+ yards, 24 TDs, 139 first downs, and some solid blocking doesn't deserve the kind of hate the guy receives around these parts.

This.  He fought harder for extra yards than anyone of the team, and he converted many a third down on just that extra effort.

A big part of it was that he was cursed by being a top 20 pick in the draft.  He was never the superstar that many expected, but he was a damn solid TE.

(10-14-2015, 07:39 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Dude, really? People make so many excuses for Gresham!? What board are you reading? 93% of Gresh mentions are going overboard trashing the guy.

Keith Rivers was just bad and didn't even start a full season in his entire NFL career. He was a huge bust. At least we got a few solid years and some good blocking out of Gresham. He may end up having an unimpressive ending to his career but he's definitely done more than people like you will ever give him credit for.

I'll never understand how someone will come onto a board where any mention of a guy is bashing him and claim he gets excuses made for him. I haven't seen anyone outside of a banned troll say that he was anything more than a solid contributor that takes too much unwarranted heat from people.

What board are you reading? Up til recently, the boards were pretty split on Gresh. He has/had lots of fans on here. Many people were salty he left and probably would've preferred he started for us this year over Eifert. A lot of the same people who were bashing Eifert for being inexperienced and injury prone were also fans of Gresh. So lets not pretend that the boards have ever been one-sided on the subject.

I was debating with several non-trolls this summer about Gresh. I saw a few people predicting he'd have a career year with a different team or that the Bengals held him back with their play-calling. That's going beyond saying he was a "solid contributor". Some people truly think/thought Gresh has immense talent and is capable of being a top 10 TE. Heck over the last year or so, I saw quite a few people say Gresh was a top 10 TE.

Sure, Keith Rivers was bad. He also had plenty of folks (mostly on the boards) that didn't want to admit that. Quite a few claimed he was a victim of injuries/circumstances and that he'd probably be a big time player for the Giants. That talk didn't stop until Rivers started washing out elsewhere. 

I'd say that Gresh's career was a bit better than Rivers', but they were both overrated by some, and I have a feeling that Gresh's career outside of Cincy is going to end on a similar note. I don't think the guy was trash, but he was an average player overall, and a liability at times.

Beast of an athlete. The offense isnt the same when he isn't involved.

(10-14-2015, 11:16 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Gresham had an obscene amount of holding calls against him between 2012 and 2013 (5 and 6 each year respectively), however, he only has 2 total holding calls in his other 3 years as a pro combined.

2010 - 2 false start, 1 hold, 1 unnecessary roughness
2011 - 5 false start, 1 OPI
2012 - 3 false start, 6 hold
2013 - 4 false start, 5 hold, 1 unsportsmanlike, 1 declined OPI
2014 - 3 false start, 1 hold, 1 illegal motion

He led the league in penalties by a TE twice in his career and was in the top 10 on 2 other occasions (top 5 one of those).

If there's any validity to the Gresham bashing, it's when people bring up the mental errors and penalties. Gresham was definitely a solid blocker and his hands weren't terrible despite what many like to say around here.

Putting his Mental errors aside, Gresh and Eifert would have been quite a tandem. 

(10-14-2015, 09:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: What board are you reading? Up til recently, the boards were pretty split on Gresh. He has/had lots of fans on here. Many people were salty he left and probably would've preferred he started for us this year over Eifert. A lot of the same people who were bashing Eifert for being inexperienced and injury prone were also fans of Gresh. So lets not pretend that the boards have ever been one-sided on the subject.

I was debating with several non-trolls this summer about Gresh. I saw a few people predicting he'd have a career year with a different team or that the Bengals held him back with their play-calling. That's going beyond saying he was a "solid contributor". Some people truly think/thought Gresh has immense talent and is capable of being a top 10 TE. Heck over the last year or so, I saw quite a few people say Gresh was a top 10 TE.

Sure, Keith Rivers was bad. He also had plenty of folks (mostly on the boards) that didn't want to admit that. Quite a few claimed he was a victim of injuries/circumstances and that he'd probably be a big time player for the Giants. That talk didn't stop until Rivers started washing out elsewhere. 

I'd say that Gresh's career was a bit better than Rivers', but they were both overrated by some, and I have a feeling that Gresh's career outside of Cincy is going to end on a similar note. I don't think the guy was trash, but he was an average player overall, and a liability at times.

Let's be honest, the board being "split" on Gresham isn't true at all. In reality, the only split you could call it were those saying that they wanted Gresham to be re-signed because of the worry if Eifert goes down, we have nothing behind him. There were also a lot of us wanting to see a more improved version of the 2013 offense when we had 2 TE sets with 2 receiving TEs. Very, very, very few people wanted Gresham back here because they thought Eifert sucked and that Gresham was awesomesauce. If someone expresses concern that our 3-4 TEs going into the season had a combined 400 yards receiving and our best talent coming off a season ending injury, I don't think it's really overrating Gresham as much as it's being upset that we lost a guy that was solid here and likely better than a bunch of rookies.

Gresham does/did have immense talent and is/was absolutely capable of being a top 10 TE. Do you really argue that? We've seen a lot of guys over the years here with immense talent, but it didn't always translate to the field or issues would arise. It doesn't mean the talent isn't there. Jermaine Gresham is VERY talented, but it's unfortunate that he had his issues and couldn't be that top 10 player that he had potential to be. Gresham may not be a top 10 TE, but you're just showing your bias if you don't think he had the talent to be. Did you watch him in college? Did you see his athleticism in the NFL? The potential and talent was there, but it didn't translate as well as it could have. It's rare to see any of the guys that regularly hit the big numbers to be great blockers, but Gresham could catch and block, so I was content with him not having Jimmy Graham statlines as long as we had other receivers picking up the slack there while Gresham could be a good blocker when needed as well.

He may not have been a consensus top 10 player at his position, but that doesn't mean the next step after that is mediocre. Also, having him here with Eifert was what a lot of us wanted to see. I would just about have to guarantee that Gresham would have put up bigger numbers than most TE2 in the league while continuing to be a good blocker, but that's before the whole back injury thing came out and it seems that those issues are still lingering for the guy. I don't love him, I don't think he's great or elite, I don't think he nearly lived up to his potential, I just think he's better than being the punchline on these boards to 90% of posters. You're ignoring the majority if you honestly don't think the narrative has been to bash the damn guy for years now. He has been thrashed as much, if not more than any non-Andy player on this team. Maualuga and Peko have taken less heat at times than Gresham. What he has done on this team since he's been in the league doesn't deserve all the hate, that's my point here, this is the one time I'll throw out the classic Fred line and say that he's definitely better than most people give him credit for.

If you're going to act like people made excuses for Gresham at some astonishing rate, you can check out this new-ish thread for some awesome "excuses", and by excuses I mean an entire thread with just about zero people defending the guy....

http://bengalsboard.net/Thread-Would-Gresham-be-doing-the-same-thing-Eifert-is-if-he-had-this-years-Andy

(10-15-2015, 08:59 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Let's be honest, the board being "split" on Gresham isn't true at all. In reality, the only split you could call it were those saying that they wanted Gresham to be re-signed because of the worry if Eifert goes down, we have nothing behind him. There were also a lot of us wanting to see a more improved version of the 2013 offense when we had 2 TE sets with 2 receiving TEs. Very, very, very few people wanted Gresham back here because they thought Eifert sucked and that Gresham was awesomesauce. If someone expresses concern that our 3-4 TEs going into the season had a combined 400 yards receiving and our best talent coming off a season ending injury, I don't think it's really overrating Gresham as much as it's being upset that we lost a guy that was solid here and likely better than a bunch of rookies.

Gresham does/did have immense talent and is/was absolutely capable of being a top 10 TE. Do you really argue that? We've seen a lot of guys over the years here with immense talent, but it didn't always translate to the field or issues would arise. It doesn't mean the talent isn't there. Jermaine Gresham is VERY talented, but it's unfortunate that he had his issues and couldn't be that top 10 player that he had potential to be. Gresham may not be a top 10 TE, but you're just showing your bias if you don't think he had the talent to be. Did you watch him in college? Did you see his athleticism in the NFL? The potential and talent was there, but it didn't translate as well as it could have. It's rare to see any of the guys that regularly hit the big numbers to be great blockers, but Gresham could catch and block, so I was content with him not having Jimmy Graham statlines as long as we had other receivers picking up the slack there while Gresham could be a good blocker when needed as well.

He may not have been a consensus top 10 player at his position, but that doesn't mean the next step after that is mediocre. Also, having him here with Eifert was what a lot of us wanted to see. I would just about have to guarantee that Gresham would have put up bigger numbers than most TE2 in the league while continuing to be a good blocker, but that's before the whole back injury thing came out and it seems that those issues are still lingering for the guy. I don't love him, I don't think he's great or elite, I don't think he nearly lived up to his potential, I just think he's better than being the punchline on these boards to 90% of posters. You're ignoring the majority if you honestly don't think the narrative has been to bash the damn guy for years now. He has been thrashed as much, if not more than any non-Andy player on this team. Maualuga and Peko have taken less heat at times than Gresham. What he has done on this team since he's been in the league doesn't deserve all the hate, that's my point here, this is the one time I'll throw out the classic Fred line and say that he's definitely better than most people give him credit for.

If you're going to act like people made excuses for Gresham at some astonishing rate, you can check out this new-ish thread for some awesome "excuses", and by excuses I mean an entire thread with just about zero people defending the guy....

http://bengalsboard.net/Thread-Would-Gresham-be-doing-the-same-thing-Eifert-is-if-he-had-this-years-Andy

If Dalton could be a punchline, certainly Gresham could be.  Talk about someone not living up to their draft position.  Addition by subtraction as far as I'm concerned.  

(10-15-2015, 09:51 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: If Dalton could be a punchline, certainly Gresham could be.  Talk about someone not living up to their draft position.  Addition by subtraction as far as I'm concerned.  

Which is why most casuals cry about him.



Is there any former Bengals player that you don't talk shit on? No? Okay.

(10-14-2015, 08:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This.  He fought harder for extra yards than anyone of the team, and he converted many a third down on just that extra effort.

A big part of it was that he was cursed by being a top 20 pick in the draft.  He was never the superstar that many expected, but he was a damn solid TE.

But he wasnt a top 20 draft pick... he was #21 lol

(10-15-2015, 10:36 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Which is why most casuals cry about him.



Is there any former Bengals player that you don't talk shit on? No? Okay.

Bengals have been pretty good of late keeping their best players and letting the jokers go.

(10-15-2015, 10:52 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Bengals have been pretty good of late keeping their best players and letting the jokers go.

Calling a guy like Gresh a "joker" and the people that say "he sucks" just shows how much you all really pay attention to TE play around the league.

Why the need to have an extremist view on a guy that wasn't clearly great and also wasn't terrible??

(10-15-2015, 11:06 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Calling a guy like Gresh a "joker" and the people that say "he sucks" just shows how much you all really pay attention to TE play around the league.

Why the need to have an extremist view on a guy that wasn't clearly great and also wasn't terrible??

I take it back.  Let's just say I'm glad "Bad Gresh" is gone.  

(10-15-2015, 08:59 AM)djs7685 Wrote: 1. Let's be honest, the board being "split" on Gresham isn't true at all. In reality, the only split you could call it were those saying that they wanted Gresham to be re-signed because of the worry if Eifert goes down, we have nothing behind him. There were also a lot of us wanting to see a more improved version of the 2013 offense when we had 2 TE sets with 2 receiving TEs. Very, very, very few people wanted Gresham back here because they thought Eifert sucked and that Gresham was awesomesauce. If someone expresses concern that our 3-4 TEs going into the season had a combined 400 yards receiving and our best talent coming off a season ending injury, I don't think it's really overrating Gresham as much as it's being upset that we lost a guy that was solid here and likely better than a bunch of rookies.

2. Gresham does/did have immense talent and is/was absolutely capable of being a top 10 TE. Do you really argue that? We've seen a lot of guys over the years here with immense talent, but it didn't always translate to the field or issues would arise. It doesn't mean the talent isn't there. Jermaine Gresham is VERY talented, but it's unfortunate that he had his issues and couldn't be that top 10 player that he had potential to be. Gresham may not be a top 10 TE, but you're just showing your bias if you don't think he had the talent to be. Did you watch him in college? Did you see his athleticism in the NFL? The potential and talent was there, but it didn't translate as well as it could have. It's rare to see any of the guys that regularly hit the big numbers to be great blockers, but Gresham could catch and block, so I was content with him not having Jimmy Graham statlines as long as we had other receivers picking up the slack there while Gresham could be a good blocker when needed as well.

3. He may not have been a consensus top 10 player at his position, but that doesn't mean the next step after that is mediocre. Also, having him here with Eifert was what a lot of us wanted to see. I would just about have to guarantee that Gresham would have put up bigger numbers than most TE2 in the league while continuing to be a good blocker, but that's before the whole back injury thing came out and it seems that those issues are still lingering for the guy. I don't love him, I don't think he's great or elite, I don't think he nearly lived up to his potential, I just think he's better than being the punchline on these boards to 90% of posters. You're ignoring the majority if you honestly don't think the narrative has been to bash the damn guy for years now. He has been thrashed as much, if not more than any non-Andy player on this team. Maualuga and Peko have taken less heat at times than Gresham. What he has done on this team since he's been in the league doesn't deserve all the hate, that's my point here, this is the one time I'll throw out the classic Fred line and say that he's definitely better than most people give him credit for.

If you're going to act like people made excuses for Gresham at some astonishing rate, you can check out this new-ish thread for some awesome "excuses", and by excuses I mean an entire thread with just about zero people defending the guy....

http://bengalsboard.net/Thread-Would-Gresham-be-doing-the-same-thing-Eifert-is-if-he-had-this-years-Andy

1. Brother I'm probably the most honest guy on here. Mainly because I don't give 2 shits what anyone thinks about my opinion, and I'm not trying super-hard to promote some image of me being "objective". The boards have always been very split on Gresham, otherwise all Gresham threads would've died off quickly once people realized it was just a big circle jerk of Gresham hate. Instead, most Gresham threads went back and forth much like you and I are now.

I think most Gresham fan-boys were smart enough to see the writing on the wall. Gresh was on his way out and Eifert was obviously ascending. That doesn't mean that some wouldn't have preferred to have Gresh here in at least a role similar to 2013. You say people were concerned with the lack of experience at TE......well how would re-signing Gresh help those rookies gain experience?  

2. We sort-of agree here. Gresh had talent, but in 5 years, it never translated to the field. He wasn't a top 10 TE, period. Yet I saw several people argue that he was over the last few years. At this point I don't think Gresh is even a top 32 TE considering he's backing up Daniel Fells, a guy who has averaged 6.5 starts and 208 receiving yards over the last 6 seasons. Kinda speaks volumes, doesn't it? Even I thought Gresh would be doing better this. He's healthy enough to play, so I have my doubts on how much his back is a factor. It's not like he shredded his knee. His speed and hands shouldn't be affected.

3. Yes, there's been people that went overboard bashing the guy. Same as Dalton or Maualuga. That does not mean there weren't legit reasons for criticism. Gresh was one of the worst blockers at his position for several years according to PFF. He did work hard and improve in that category. His hands were inconsistent. He fumbled way too much for his position. I think he had lapses with his routes. He was moody and apparently a handful in the locker room. He had some issues with penalties (although I do think this was one issue that was exaggerated).

Honestly I hate calling out names, but there's a lot of regular posters who defended Gresh and/or claimed he was a top 10 TE over the years. There used to be some big debates about it. Although I can see why that debate has lost steam with the seasons that Eifert and Gresh are having right now.

(10-15-2015, 02:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Brother I'm probably the most honest guy on here. Mainly because I don't give 2 shits what anyone thinks about my opinion, and I'm not trying super-hard to promote some image of me being "objective". The boards have always been very split on Gresham, otherwise all Gresham threads would've died off quickly once people realized it was just a big circle jerk of Gresham hate. Instead, most Gresham threads went back and forth much like you and I are now.

I think most Gresham fan-boys were smart enough to see the writing on the wall. Gresh was on his way out and Eifert was obviously ascending. That doesn't mean that some wouldn't have preferred to have Gresh here in at least a role similar to 2013. You say people were concerned with the lack of experience at TE......well how would re-signing Gresh help those rookies gain experience?  

2. We sort-of agree here. Gresh had talent, but in 5 years, it never translated to the field. He wasn't a top 10 TE, period. Yet I saw several people argue that he was over the last few years. At this point I don't think Gresh is even a top 32 TE considering he's backing up Daniel Fells, a guy who has averaged 6.5 starts and 208 receiving yards over the last 6 seasons. Kinda speaks volumes, doesn't it? Even I thought Gresh would be doing better this. He's healthy enough to play, so I have my doubts on how much his back is a factor. It's not like he shredded his knee. His speed and hands shouldn't be affected.

3. Yes, there's been people that went overboard bashing the guy. Same as Dalton or Maualuga. That does not mean there weren't legit reasons for criticism. Gresh was one of the worst blockers at his position for several years according to PFF. He did work hard and improve in that category. His hands were inconsistent. He fumbled way too much for his position. I think he had lapses with his routes. He was moody and apparently a handful in the locker room. He had some issues with penalties (although I do think this was one issue that was exaggerated).

Honestly I hate calling out names, but there's a lot of regular posters who defended Gresh and/or claimed he was a top 10 TE over the years. There used to be some big debates about it. Although I can see why that debate has lost steam with the seasons that Eifert and Gresh are having right now.

1. You may be honest, but that doesn't mean your analysis is 100% factual and nobody else that disagrees is ever correct about anything. I just really think you're over exaggerating about the amount of people that really slobbered all over Gresham. There may have been a small handful out of the hundreds of regular posters. Threads just need 1 person on the other side to cause an entire back and forth. Hell, look at this board. I've found myself in 5 page discussions with 3 or 4 different people even though I was the only one arguing on my side. That doesn't mean I had a ton of people sharing my opinion just because it was 5 pages worth of arguments and the thread didn't die immediately.

2. He had talent but didn't really translate it all to the field. He did a great job extending the play at times and he was solid but that's about it. I have no problem saying that and not calling him great and whatever else. We agree for the most part here, yes.

3. There are legit reasons for criticism, and this is sort of funny to me. You say that the one thing that has been exaggerated has been the penalties, but I think that's the one thing that is 100% true. I posted the numbers above, he led the league in penalties by TEs for 2 straight years and was top 5 in another and top 10 in another. He was only out of the top 10 in penalties for 1 season of his career. He also did have a handful of fumbles, but it's not like he was losing the ball 10 times compared to others only fumbling 1 or 2. He had 1-3 per season, which I'm not going to say is entirely acceptable, but it's not nearly as bad as some make it seem. His hands are one part that people definitely blow way out of proportion. His drop rate isn't THAT bad, it's just a couple of big drops in big moments got him that reputation and it has stuck with him on Bengals message boards.

4. I understand you not wanting to call out specific names, that's fine. I just think you got into arguments with 2-3 specific people and for some reason you're making it seem like half of a message board was on that side. Most people have been ready to crush Gresham at any moment they can. Not many people would defend him other than a couple of guys that I can think of specifically and then maybe a couple more that defend ANYONE on the team. We can agree to disagree about the amount of people on each side though, that's fine with me.