(03-27-2020, 08:54 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Alright folks! That's enough about Sample in this thread. Go find one about the TEs if that's what you want to debate?

Back to Vonn Bell plz.

That's at least the second time that's had to be done in this very thread... I smell a Drew Sample megathread.

I'm not sure I've chimed in yet... As a Buckeye alum, I love me some Vonn Bell. I think that those who are pointing out that we didn't address the LB situation may be surprised at how often he lines up there. Sweet Lou is a DB guy... Vonn may be our hybrid.

(03-27-2020, 09:25 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: 1 - I agree.
2 - I like Phillips for the future and think this was a plan to get him into a starting position slowly. Wayne's contract is front loaded
but it also has an out for us if he doesn't work out and Waynes is just simply young and a much better tackler than Dre. Shawn is 
on the last year of his contract and Vonn Bell is a stud blitzer and tackling beast. I like Shawn as I have said, he has a better nose 
for the ball than Vonn so far in his career but we needed insurance as well as someone to show Bates how to blitz and tackle better.

Bates in the meantime hopefully can teach Bell how to be better in pass coverage. Win win.

3 - Put your money in the trenches man and what better way than Reader? He will help out the LB's and the Draft is coming up to 
add to the position. Schobert was overpaid too and is not a great tackler and does not play in the trenches. We are moving to a 3-4
Hybrid, need to have the NT and Reader is perfect in front of Tupou. Couldn't think of a better fit in this move than Reader.

I like Williams, and agree that he has good instincts for tracking the football. Ts, I recently read an article that showed his in the box numbers from last season,and they weren't very good.

Don't have a link...? May have been PFF? There are others on the board that are much better at posting analytics than I am. If I remember correctly, the article was debating the merits of moving Williams to LB? Then it went on to show that he didn't fair all that well inside last season.

Like you mentioned, he has a good nose for the ball. I've always liked him. Will be interesting to see how this plays out?

(03-27-2020, 05:52 PM)J24 Wrote: It's a passing league teams don't just don't run on first down anymore. If he is one of our 3 down LBers were in trouble. If we use him like we did with James Harrison in 13 then he will be fine.

The Defense was actually improving as the season went along. The secondary/Dline actually played fairly well during the last 7 games.
57% completion + 21 sacks last 7 games of year. 
So no I won't be that surprised if the Defense is better next year infact I would expect it given how they improved at the end of last season.

But so many of those guys from that "improving" defense aren't here any more. So, why would that continue?

This is getting silly. Our new free agent class is at worst equal to the players they replaced in pass coverage but FAR superior at run defense and especially at tackling, which has been a killer weakness of our defense for a while.

(03-27-2020, 08:44 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Dennard wasn't a bad tackler at all not sure how you pulled that one out your ass. Kinda of funny for someone to say when they supposedly watched "all the games".
2.) There not going to overpay for a pro bowl LB but yet they were willing to overpay on a average CB and an average safety. Cool story bro
3.) Im not impressed with the money they spent just because they spend it. I want this team to move forward. Not sideways or backwards. 
This team had weaknesses at LB, G, and RT. They haven't fully addressed those needs very well this off-season and that disappointing.

J24, I knew you were going to say that about Dennard, and that's EXACTLY why I put "Not available to tackle anyone" (Dennard).
Sure, I watched all the same games, and how many games did Dennard miss??? How many has he missed in his career?? Go track those numbers down buddy.

So, you proved me right. And, that's why I didn't even continue reading the rest of your points.

Move onto something else man.....You lost me at "Why would we overpay for the best young run stuffing tackle" in one of Nate's posts. Give me a break man.

(03-27-2020, 02:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think Sample will be so much better this year. Esp if Burrow is chucking him the rock..
Sample, despite only playing 9 games, had as many receptions his rookie season as these other TEs

Ben Watson (547 career receptions)
Kellen Winslow (469 career receptions)
Marcus Pollard (349 career receptions)
Desmond Clark (323 career receptions)
Steve Jordan (6 time Pro Bowl)
Travis Kelce (5 time Pro Bowl)
Todd Christiansen (5 time Pro Bowl)
Jay Novacek (5 time Pro Bowl)
Wesley Walls (5 time Pro Bowl)
Rodney Holman (3 time Pro Bowl)
Mark Chmura (3 time Pro Bowl)
Delanie Walker (3 time Pro Bowl)

Hall of Famer Shannon Sharpe only had 7 receptions his rookie season.

(03-27-2020, 10:31 PM)Mobster Wrote: But so many of those guys from that "improving" defense aren't here any more. So, why would that continue?

The Starting defensive line is back in full effect plus they improved with reader.  Pratt gives me hope at LB the Defense really improved once he came in.  Hopefully the Bengals go out and sign another LB & draft another one because they need a jolt of athleticism at that position.
The secondary worries me because of changes and there will be adjustments but the new additions are not bad just not necessary major improvements like most want to believe. They are physical though which should help. 
Add a 3T, 3 more LB, and maybe a developmental CB. The unit will be fine or better than most should expect. 

Can't we just let the season speak for how much we do or do not suck? No point in arguing so much the players are here now.

We had a historically bad defense the last couple seasons (and no it was not just the LBers), so we go out and replace a bunch of them with better players from actual good teams, and yet there’s still people crying over not getting the exact guys they wanted.

Vigil was terrible, I’m ecstatic he’s gone. Addition by subtraction. Dennard was decent, but he rivaled Eifert and AJ in how injury prone he was. Reader over Billings was a huge upgrade, and if a team like Pittsburgh or Dallas made that signing the media would be heaping praise all over it. Vonn Bell might be one of the most underrated signings of this FA. He’s in his prime and we locked him up for 3 years. Same with Reader. And both those guys had multiple other teams going after them.

You’re out of your mind if you’re not encouraged by all this. But I disagree with J24 about 99% of the time, so this really doesn’t surprise me all that much.

(03-28-2020, 05:36 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We had a historically bad defense the last couple seasons (and no it was not just the LBers), so we go out and replace a bunch of them with better players from actual good teams, and yet there’s still people crying over not getting the exact guys they wanted.

Vigil was terrible, I’m ecstatic he’s gone. Addition by subtraction. Dennard was decent, but he rivaled Eifert and AJ in how injury prone he was. Reader over Billings was a huge upgrade, and if a team like Pittsburgh or Dallas made that signing the media would be heaping praise all over it. Vonn Bell might be one of the most underrated signings of this FA. He’s in his prime and we locked him up for 3 years. Same with Reader. And both those guys had multiple other teams going after them.

You’re out of your mind if you’re not encouraged by all this. But I disagree with J24 about 99% of the time, so this really doesn’t surprise me all that much.

I don't get it either ?

Historically this team has done little to nothing in free agency, we all know their M.O. Now we go and get not 1, not 2, not 3, you could argue 4 pretty much top end free agents for our awful defense and they're still bitching.

We got burnt alive on our run D not only last season it's been bad for some time and we signed guys who can tackle. 10, 15, close to 20 points higher PFF grades. How many times did you see 7 yard passes against us turn into 20 yard gains last season ?

Ok, thus far we haven't got a top end LBer or Oline. Free agency isn't over and there's still umm the draft. Not to mention camp cuts.

They've done something they just don't do, I'm ecstatic !!

(03-28-2020, 07:45 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't get it either ?

Historically this team has done little to nothing in free agency, we all know their M.O. Now we go and get not 1, not 2, not 3, you could argue 4 pretty much top end free agents for our awful defense and they're still bitching.

We got burnt alive on our run D not only last season it's been bad for some time and we signed guys who can tackle. 10, 15, close to 20 points higher PFF grades. How many times did you see 7 yard passes against us turn into 20 yard gains last season ?

Ok, thus far we haven't got a top end LBer or Oline. Free agency isn't over and there's still umm the draft. Not to mention camp cuts.

They've done something they just don't do, I'm ecstatic !!

The overall roster stock has gotten a huge shot in the arm recently.  Sure, they could still use another LB, as there's no such thing as "too many good LBs".  My biggest concern right now is that after inserting 5 new starters on defense, getting them enough time and reps together, in order for them to be working as a cohesive unit for the start of the season.

(03-28-2020, 05:36 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We had a historically bad defense the last couple seasons (and no it was not just the LBers), so we go out and replace a bunch of them with better players from actual good teams, and yet there’s still people crying over not getting the exact guys they wanted.

Vigil was terrible, I’m ecstatic he’s gone. Addition by subtraction. Dennard was decent, but he rivaled Eifert and AJ in how injury prone he was. Reader over Billings was a huge upgrade, and if a team like Pittsburgh or Dallas made that signing the media would be heaping praise all over it. Vonn Bell might be one of the most underrated signings of this FA. He’s in his prime and we locked him up for 3 years. Same with Reader. And both those guys had multiple other teams going after them.

You’re out of your mind if you’re not encouraged by all this. But I disagree with J24 about 99% of the time, so this really doesn’t surprise me all that much.

1.)  who's arguing that the defense wasn't bad for the past couple of seasons?
2.) Yes it was the LB play that was the main reason for the downfall of the defense. Just like the Offensive line is the main problem with the offense. Is it any coincidence that our defense improved dramatically once Pratt was put it the lineup ?Seriously look at the Defense week 11 on compared to weeks 2-10.
3.) Vigil isn't that bad as everyone makes him out to be but he wasn't a superstar either.  What he is was a guy who could play all three downs which we don't currently have at that position (maybe Pratt). Bynes is the typical Bengals LB signing one down run stuffing LB who is a liability in pass coverage. Yes I know what PFF says about his pass coverage but those stats don't tell the whole story because the Ravens hid him in passing situations. Hopefully Lou does the same thing as the Ravens instead of making him a starter in nickel  like we did with Brown last season.
4.) Yeah I like the reader signing but to say that the Nose Tackle position was a big need for this team is an absolute joke. Billings and Topu we're good players for us last season it's not like they were garbage at all.
5.) Bell, Alexander, and Wayne's are solid players but so are Williams, Kirkpatrick, and Dennard. I don't think we drastically improved those positions at all maybe slightly but we could have used the money in other places like RT and LB instead. Not sure why that upsets people so much.
All in all I think we're in a much better spot than we were last season with Burrow, Williams, and a healthy Green coming back should make us a lot better on offense. 

I liked what I saw on defense at the end of last year. Our line is still near the top of the league not sure you can do much at pass rusher then Dunlap, Geno, Lawson, and Hubbard. The addition of Reader is a good one + Topu should be back. 
I think Pratt will be better and the secondary is similar to what we had last season. 
Plus I think you will see Jackson and Bates play up to there enormous potential so that unit might be better just because of that. 
Hopefully we draft a stud LB in the draft to play next to Pratt next season if that happens were looking at a top 5 unit.

(03-28-2020, 03:06 PM)J24 Wrote: 4.) Yeah I like the reader signing but to say that the Nose Tackle position was a big need for this team is an absolute joke. Billings and Topu we're good players for us last season it's not like they were garbage at all.

Sure, Billings is a capable, average player at his position.  Tupau is a solid backup, that provides fresh legs off the bench.  However, you won't really realize what this team has been missing by not having a true star at NT, until you see the jump in production that his presence will provide to the guys playing around him.

A guy like Reader must be double teamed, every down that he's on the field.  This is going to elevate the quality of the entire unit.

(03-28-2020, 03:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Sure, Billings is a capable, average player at his position.  Tupau is a solid backup, that provides fresh legs off the bench.  However, you won't really realize what this team has been missing by not having a true star at NT, until you see the jump in production that his presence will provide to the guys playing around him.

A guy like Reader must be double teamed, every down that he's on the field.  This is going to elevate the quality of the entire unit.

Billings wasn't average though he was good same with Topu. I think reader will  be an improvement. we would have been fine with if Billings was re-signed instead of him. Either way I'm pumped for the Dline this season.

(03-28-2020, 03:37 PM)J24 Wrote: Billings wasn't average though he was good same with Topu. I think reader will  be an improvement. we would have been fine with if Billings was re-signed instead of him. Either way I'm pumped for the Dline this season.

One year/$3.5M doesn't exactly scream superstar.. 

(03-28-2020, 03:40 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: One year/$3.5M doesn't exactly scream superstar.. 

So does that make Alexander garbage because we only signed him for 4 Million? That seams Like misguided reasoning. Like I said Billings is a good player and if he were a starter we wouldn't be bitching about it.

(03-28-2020, 03:44 PM)J24 Wrote: So does that make Alexander garbage because we only signed him for 4 Million? That seams Like misguided reasoning. Like I said Billings is a good player and if he were a starter we wouldn't be bitching about it.

Judging by how easily they let Billings go and by the amount of money they are willing to pay Reader, I would suggest that the organization strongly disagrees.

(03-28-2020, 03:44 PM)J24 Wrote: So does that make Alexander garbage because we only signed him for 4 Million? That seams Like misguided reasoning. Like I said Billings is a good player and if he were a starter we wouldn't be bitching about it.

Except that plenty of us were bitching about him when he was the starter.  He tended to flash like he was going to develop into a force, then would be seemingly invisible for stretches of several games.

(03-28-2020, 03:50 PM)McC Wrote: Judging by how easily they let Billings go and by the amount of money they are willing to pay Reader, I would suggest that the organization strongly disagrees.

Or maybe they felt Reader was a superstar and Billings was there backup option if they didn't get Reader.

(03-28-2020, 03:44 PM)J24 Wrote: So does that make Alexander garbage because we only signed him for 4 Million? That seams Like misguided reasoning. Like I said Billings is a good player and if he were a starter we wouldn't be bitching about it.

Are you really going to compare the going rate of a top NT to a slot corner?