Front loading the deals right now is sensible as it means that when we need the cap room to extend a Burrow (if he is what is hoped) we will have it.

(04-03-2020, 06:41 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: You do realize front loading the contract will allow the Bengals to do this in Burrow's prime?

You do realize that the Bengals only have 3 players under team control right now for the 2023 season?

Tyler Boyd
DJ Reader
Jonah Williams (only if they exercise his 5th year option)

That's it. Done. That's all of their theoretical contractual commitments they have right now for when Burrow is actually eligible for an extension. 

Meanwhile the salary cap will rise another $40m+ in that timeframe. That's why making contract moves to plan for something that may or may not happen 4 years from now is an absurd idea in the NFL.

(04-03-2020, 06:41 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Well, it was smart if it helped cause Reader to choose the Bengals over the Broncos.

If that was the reason.

One of the few times they backloaded a contract that I can think of was Dalton, and now they're in a situation where they can cut him with $0 in dead cap space. It paid off.

(04-03-2020, 07:06 PM)Whatever Wrote: So we've basically gone from complaining that the FO never signs top tier FA's in their prime to complaining about the contract structure of a top tier FA in their prime that they just signed?

It's all under the umbrella of wanting a well-run FO. It's not separate issues.

I luv to read TLL's posts you can learn a lot from reading what the man has to say very smart

I would bet a diet mountain dew he is an engineer

TLL I ask you this, if this was your HS team with no money involved and we just added:

DL beast up front
Safety that tackles, covers and int's
2 very good corners
and a room full of CB's

would you be smiling ear to ear ?

(04-03-2020, 06:17 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm sorry, I forgot that Mike Brown/Duke Tobin had shown themselves to be the smartest FO in the league and know better than everyone else with all of their wild success and Super Bowl wins they've had.

Michael Thomas for the Saints is only a $7m cap hit this year, and doesn't go into the $20m+ range until 2022.
Stephon Gilmore for the Pats had cap hits under $10m his first three years and $18-19m cap hits the final two.
Frank Clark for the Chiefs had a $6.5m cap hit in 2019, $19.3m in 2020, and $25.8m in 2021.
Matt Ryan for the Falcons is still having under $20m cap hits in 2020 and later $40m in the contract.
Earl Thomas for the Ravens had a $7m cap hit in 2019, and $17m in 2022.

EVERY successful team makes use of backloading contracts to make sure they get the most talent possible in their cap space each year. The Bengals aren't geniuses because they do otherwise. The results show that.

The food critic who hates all food, the film critic who despises movies.

(04-03-2020, 05:42 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Why? If he flops, you're out a ton of money before you can pull the plug. Meanwhile even if he's as great as advertised, you have used up more of your cap space so now you can't maximize your cap space NOW to add more good players.

The best teams find ways to create MORE cap space for each year, not find ways to make less. Worry about potential cap issues 3 years from now, 3 years from now.

As of now they’re a 2-14 team and need better players. They’ll pay something like 35 mil of his contract first two years. Front load so when better players from the draft come around for extensions you have flexibility to move his contract or be able to take those on (hopefully Joey B). I’ve been on record saying I didn’t understand this deal, but it’s where we’re at.

(04-03-2020, 07:26 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You do realize that the Bengals only have 3 players under team control right now for the 2023 season?

Tyler Boyd
DJ Reader
Jonah Williams (only if they exercise his 5th year option)

That's it. Done. That's all of their theoretical contractual commitments they have right now for when Burrow is actually eligible for an extension. 

Meanwhile the salary cap will rise another $40m+ in that timeframe. That's why making contract moves to plan for something that may or may not happen 4 years from now is an absurd idea in the NFL.

If Burrow is what we all hope he is then the years the Bengals should be targeting to win it all are 2022 and 2023.

So you frontload Reader's contract and pay him in 2020 and 2021 so you have the cap-space to try and assemble an all-star team in 2022 and 2023 when Burrow is established but cheap and players want to join to win a ring.

Paying Reader now allows you to sign more of those players when you are ready to go all in.

Rebuilding teams should be frontloading contracts. It's only once your team is established and your window is closing that it makes sense to start backloading the contracts.

(04-03-2020, 07:26 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You do realize that the Bengals only have 3 players under team control right now for the 2023 season?

Tyler Boyd
DJ Reader
Jonah Williams (only if they exercise his 5th year option)

That's it. Done. That's all of their theoretical contractual commitments they have right now for when Burrow is actually eligible for an extension. 

Meanwhile the salary cap will rise another $40m+ in that timeframe. That's why making contract moves to plan for something that may or may not happen 4 years from now is an absurd idea in the NFL.


If that was the reason.

One of the few times they backloaded a contract that I can think of was Dalton, and now they're in a situation where they can cut him with $0 in dead cap space. It paid off.


It's all under the umbrella of wanting a well-run FO. It's not separate issues.

What top tier UFA in their prime from a playoff team is going to take a backloaded deal to leave and go to a 2-14 team?  If such a player was going to to take a backloaded deal, it would be with a contender that is short on cap space.  Or, it would be a situation like Dalton's where he had limited leverage and wanted to create cap space to re-up other key players.

Players and agents grew wise to the backloaded deal tactic years ago.  Teams would sign guys to high dollar backloaded contracts to make it sound like the player was going to break the bank, then cut bait before the player hit the really big money.

(04-03-2020, 03:59 PM)PikesPeakUC Wrote: Financials are out for the Reader contract.

The #Bengals have officially signed free agent DT DJ Reader, source said. It took a while, but it just happened. He accepted additional language that many clubs have inserted. He gets $53M over 4 years with a large sum of $22.25M in Year 1 and $31.75M over first 2 years.

— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) April 3, 2020

Great news, thanks PikesPeak.  

(04-03-2020, 05:42 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Why? If he flops, you're out a ton of money before you can pull the plug. Meanwhile even if he's as great as advertised, you have used up more of your cap space so now you can't maximize your cap space NOW to add more good players.

The best teams find ways to create MORE cap space for each year, not find ways to make less. Worry about potential cap issues 3 years from now, 3 years from now.

Reader is proven and right now we need to build for the future when we need to pay our Franchise QB in case he plays as 
good in the NFL as he did last season in college. The one thing I was afraid of was us NOT helping out Burrow this FA and 
waiting. That would be stupid cause of the way the best Franchise QB's are being paid now.

Right now is the time to build Taylor's team around Burrow, not wait for 3 frickin' years.... WTF?

(04-03-2020, 08:58 PM)Whatever Wrote: What top tier UFA in their prime from a playoff team is going to take a backloaded deal to leave and go to a 2-14 team?  If such a player was going to to take a backloaded deal, it would be with a contender that is short on cap space.  Or, it would be a situation like Dalton's where he had limited leverage and wanted to create cap space to re-up other key players.

Players and agents grew wise to the backloaded deal tactic years ago.  Teams would sign guys to high dollar backloaded contracts to make it sound like the player was going to break the bank, then cut bait before the player hit the really big money.

Bears were coming off 3-13 and 5-11 seasons when they signed Khalil Mack to a 6yr/$141m deal.

The first 2 years of the contract have cap hits of $13.8m and $11.9m. The final two years have cap hits of $25.5m and $23.25m.

He can be cut before those final two years with just $2.6m in dead cap space.

- - - - - - - -

It's not 100% the exact scenario you just posed, but you also just gave 7 qualifiers to the situation which pretty much ensures that nothing will ever meet all 7. That said, it's a pretty close example of an elite guy in his prime taking a backloaded deal with a new (losing) team.

(04-03-2020, 09:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Bears were coming off 3-13 and 5-11 seasons when they signed Khalil Mack to a 6yr/$141m deal.

The first 2 years of the contract have cap hits of $13.8m and $11.9m. The final two years have cap hits of $25.5m and $23.25m.

He can be cut before those final two years with just $2.6m in dead cap space.

- - - - - - - -

It's not 100% the exact scenario you just posed, but you also just gave 7 qualifiers to the situation which pretty much ensures that nothing will ever meet all 7. That said, it's a pretty close example of an elite guy in his prime taking a backloaded deal with a new (losing) team.

They didn't sign Mack on the FA market.  They traded for him.  Doesn't that make the two scenarios completely different as opposed to not 100% the exact scenario?

(04-03-2020, 10:40 PM)McC Wrote: They didn't sign Mack on the FA market.  They traded for him.  Doesn't that make the two scenarios completely different as opposed to not 100% the exact scenario?

No, because he still had to agree to the contract in principle before the trade happened. He could have hit the FA market as a 28-year-old DPOY, but chose to take a backloaded deal instead.

He's a DPOY, All-Pro, Pro Bowler who accepted a contract where the final $75.9m in cap hits can be avoided with $12m in dead cap space, or the final $48.75m in cap hits can be avoided with just $2.6m in dead cap space.

It hits the majority of his 7 qualifiers. If you want it to hit all 7 of his specific qualifiers, you must be the type of people who watch baseball and love to hear about records where "he's hit the most groundrule doubles on a Tuesday games that are played a night in a dome off of left handed relief pitchers named Smith."

(04-03-2020, 09:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Bears were coming off 3-13 and 5-11 seasons when they signed Khalil Mack to a 6yr/$141m deal.

The first 2 years of the contract have cap hits of $13.8m and $11.9m. The final two years have cap hits of $25.5m and $23.25m.

He can be cut before those final two years with just $2.6m in dead cap space.

- - - - - - - -

It's not 100% the exact scenario you just posed, but you also just gave 7 qualifiers to the situation which pretty much ensures that nothing will ever meet all 7. That said, it's a pretty close example of an elite guy in his prime taking a backloaded deal with a new (losing) team.

Mack got $41 million in year one alone from his $34 mil signing bonus and $7 mil salary.  He will see over $73 million of that $141 mil in the first three years.  It's not really backloaded when he gets more than half of the cash in the first half of the contract.  It's just structured so that he takes a small salary the first two years which is offset by the massive signing bonus they gave him which they can spread the cap hit of over the life of the deal and manage the first couple of years of the cap better.

The Bengals used a similar structure on the Waynes deal.  He gets $20 mil in year one, but because $15 mil of that is signing bonus and only $5 mil is salary, his cap hit is only $10 million in year one.

In Reader's case, we only know how much cash he gets.  It could very easily be structured like Waynes' deal where he gets the big signing bonus up front with a smaller salary to reduce his cap hit.  

(04-04-2020, 12:34 AM)Whatever Wrote: Mack got $41 million in year one alone from his $34 mil signing bonus and $7 mil salary.  He will see over $73 million of that $141 mil in the first three years.  It's not really backloaded when he gets more than half of the cash in the first half of the contract.  It's just structured so that he takes a small salary the first two years which is offset by the massive signing bonus they gave him which they can spread the cap hit of over the life of the deal and manage the first couple of years of the cap better.

The Bengals used a similar structure on the Waynes deal.  He gets $20 mil in year one, but because $15 mil of that is signing bonus and only $5 mil is salary, his cap hit is only $10 million in year one.

In Reader's case, we only know how much cash he gets.  It could very easily be structured like Waynes' deal where he gets the big signing bonus up front with a smaller salary to reduce his cap hit.  

Good stuff, nice to know.

(04-03-2020, 05:31 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: That's why those rumors on twitter said we were close to the cap. They front loaded his contract, which is smart

Just an FYI, front loading a contract with cash does not mean the cap portion is front loaded. They can pro rate a huge bonus over the length of the contract making it more manageable in year 1. The issue becomes dead money if he leaves early.

(04-03-2020, 11:27 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: No, because he still had to agree to the contract in principle before the trade happened. He could have hit the FA market as a 28-year-old DPOY, but chose to take a backloaded deal instead.

He's a DPOY, All-Pro, Pro Bowler who accepted a contract where the final $75.9m in cap hits can be avoided with $12m in dead cap space, or the final $48.75m in cap hits can be avoided with just $2.6m in dead cap space.

It hits the majority of his 7 qualifiers. If you want it to hit all 7 of his specific qualifiers, you must be the type of people who watch baseball and love to hear about records where "he's hit the most groundrule doubles on a Tuesday games that are played a night in a dome off of left handed relief pitchers named Smith."

And you have to realize that if they cut him and take that 2 mil hit. If he is still playing well, he will get another nice contract and with a new signing bonus probably easily make that 50 mil in 2 years just like the original contract or they could restructure and give him a new signing bonus and stretch that out so he still makes about the same as he would if under the original contract. It's a gamble for both.

Positives and negatives in both directions. 

With that said. The Bears thought they were only a couple players away from turning things around. Unfortunately Mitch isn't cooperating like they wanted.

Backloading deals and puffing up potential dead cap in later years makes more sense the better you believe your roster to be.  Coming off of a 2 win season?  I like front loading deals personally.  Once you believe that you have a core that can carry you deep into the playoffs?  Then you should backload/eat dead cap later to retain those guys - you spend to maximize the window of opportunity.  Deals like Reader's and Waynes's allow for a nice foundation.

(04-06-2020, 09:54 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: Backloading deals and puffing up potential dead cap in later years makes more sense the better you believe your roster to be.  Coming off of a 2 win season?  I like front loading deals personally.  Once you believe that you have a core that can carry you deep into the playoffs?  Then you should backload/eat dead cap later to retain those guys - you spend to maximize the window of opportunity.  Deals like Reader's and Waynes's allow for a nice foundation.

And it makes it easier to pay your Franchise QB down the road. These dudes be expensive.

Just saw this little snippet on The Athletic:

There were five qualifying defensive tackles last year who ranked in the Top 25 in both pass-rush grades and run-stop grades. One of them is a member of the Bengals, and his name isn’t Geno Atkins. Newly signed D.J. Reader graded fifth as a run stopper and 15th in pass rush while playing for the Texans.

(04-07-2020, 07:10 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Just saw this little snippet on The Athletic:

There were five qualifying defensive tackles last year who ranked in the Top 25 in both pass-rush grades and run-stop grades. One of them is a member of the Bengals, and his name isn’t Geno Atkins. Newly signed D.J. Reader graded fifth as a run stopper and 15th in pass rush while playing for the Texans.

Love that snippet.

Texans say goodbye and thanks

Thank you, @djread98! pic.twitter.com/uKwAgCDnfi

— Houston Texans (@HoustonTexans) April 8, 2020