(04-16-2020, 08:56 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Dalton has never been a QB that moves around in the pocket and extends plays. Call it panicking, happy feet, or whatever you like, but the problem has always been there.

And don’t give me it’s the OL’s fault, or “what pocket” Burrow actually excels under pressure.

This is flat out wrong go back to his early years look at the Touchdown passes he had against the Browns in 2012 the one to Andrew Hawkins, or the one to Brandon Tate against the Chiefs, or hell the one to Boyd against the Panthers.
The problem with Dalton especially early in his career was consistency If Burrow can play like "Good Andy" without Bad Andy showing up. Then we're going to have a hell of QB on our Hands.

(04-17-2020, 01:51 AM)J24 Wrote: This is flat out wrong go back to his early years look at the Touchdown passes he had against the Browns in 2012 the one to Andrew Hawkins, or the one to Brandon Tate against the Chiefs, or hell the one to Boyd against the Panthers.
The problem with Dalton especially early in his career was consistency If Burrow can play like "Good Andy" without Bad Andy showing up. Then we're going to have a hell of QB on our Hands.

No, it is not flat out wrong. I’ve watched almost every game Dalton has ever played as a Bengal. Just because you can throw out a play here and there from any given season doesn’t mean his pocket presence hasn’t been an issue his entire career. We blamed it on his center for years, then we get a halfway decent one in Hopkins, and Dalton is even worse.

People like to pretend that Tom Brady has had 5 All Pro’s in front of him his entire career, and while their OL was usually good (not always), Brady was a master at moving his feet and sliding up and down in the pocket to make plays happen. Dalton has never done that on a regular basis. If the play breaks down at all 9 times out of 10 Dalton chucks it away, or does nothing to help himself. For a guy as athletic as he is, he’s a statue way too often.

(04-16-2020, 07:52 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Interesting read of Burrow from a senior analyst .. I will take a better version of Dalton since he lead us to 5 playoffs .. hopefully this means some wins in the the playoffs with Burrow

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001109661/article/2020-nfl-draft-prospectpro-comparisons-for-top-quarterbacks

https://youtu.be/4G9MEXk_4tw

Dalton has been getting some love here lately, they were just talking about him yesterday on the Pat McAfee show.

If we released him he'd probably end up on the Patriots in .0007 seconds.

That said, I don't really see the comparison. They're two different quarterbacks, if both came out in the same year, I don't believe people would make this association.

But hell, I'll take a better version of Andy Dalton.

5 straight playoff appearances, but Burrow shows up big in all those games. I wouldn't complain one bit.

(04-17-2020, 02:29 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No, it is not flat out wrong. I’ve watched almost every game Dalton has ever played as a Bengal. Just because you can throw out a play here and there from any given season doesn’t mean his pocket presence hasn’t been an issue his entire career. We blamed it on his center for years, then we get a halfway decent one in Hopkins, and Dalton is even worse.

People like to pretend that Tom Brady has had 5 All Pro’s in front of him his entire career, and while their OL was usually good (not always), Brady was a master at moving his feet and sliding up and down in the pocket to make plays happen. Dalton has never done that on a regular basis. If the play breaks down at all 9 times out of 10 Dalton chucks it away, or does nothing to help himself. For a guy as athletic as he is, he’s a statue way too often.

100% 

Sure you can cherry pick good plays and even games Dalton has had and there's plenty of them. But in the big picture, long haul, however you want to put it ? Dalton has never regularly excelled under pressure/off script.

Kingslayer brought up the game I believe it was season before last when on 4th down at the end of the game Dalton rolled out to the right out of the pocket and tossed our last chance up into the stands. If memory serves we were still in the game, down 3 or something ? still some seconds on the clock. I remember my jaw dropping and hitting the floor ! WTF was that Dalton ? You couldn't even at least try and throw it at a receiver ? or run ?

I bring this up only because it's a perfect example of AD crumbling at crunch time. And it's far from the only example. Is Dalton a horrible QB ? NO But he's just never regularly had that 5th gear, been able to work off script, make shit happen, in the crunch.

(04-16-2020, 08:41 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You know me, have always been a Dalton backer but the one thing that makes this comparison so much nonsense
is who is calm, cool and collected in the pocket and who panics even when the OL is blocking well. Burrow under
pressure was as good as any player ever last season against the best teams in the country.

Dalton panics even when the pocket doesn't break down. There is absolutely no panic from Burrow at all.

I have a hybrid comparison - Joe Montana/Tom Brady

Nate, love ya man, but the bolded above hot take is why we need negative rep back.  

(04-16-2020, 11:36 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I agree tons of variables but QB more than any position that the greatest impact and like it or not they are judged more on getting to playoffs and winning.. also if Burrow is as good as advertised he should be able to win with less talent.

I agree to a point, but still need to add more talent for Burrow.

I want him set up like he was at LSU last year in a similar system.

Then you might all see why I make the Montana/Brady/Mahomes comparison over Dalton who is not comparable IMO.

(04-17-2020, 10:37 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Nate, love ya man, but the bolded above hot take is why we need negative rep back.  

You did the ninja so I won't take that too seriously lol

Who is your comparison TLL?

(04-16-2020, 09:11 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Im not sure why some seem so unhappy with this quote.. Dalton was a good QB but ended up not moving us past the 1st round of playoffs... Burrow and Dalton have some similar attributes but Burrow with his ability to extend plays, move in the pocket we would expect to not only take us to the playoffs but win games..

I think the reason I shake my head about it is because I watched Dalton in college and I don't see a ton of similarities between the two.  I didn't see Dalton as a dynamic guy that took the team by the horns and led them to victory.  I look back at 2018 LSU and watched the games and I come away somewhat impressed by Burrow.  He didn't have an offseason with the WRs and it showed.  He was very accurate last yea as well, it just didn't show up with a high completion %.

IF we were getting a better version of Dalton, I wouldn't waste the #1 overall pick on that.  I'd take my chances with one of the other guys that could give me that.

Tony Romo is the best comparison I’ve heard so far. And that’s he’s ceiling, not floor. Not that it’s a bad thing, being compared to Tony Romo. I’m just trying to keep the Kool Aid to a minimum on this guy. Until I see him play a game in the NFL behind this o-line, I can’t say one way or another if he’s the next Patrick Mahomes or the next Ryan Leaf.

We need to keep in mind that these "comps" should be compared to what the guy was in college.

I've always thought Burrow's best comp was Peyton Manning. He kills you with his brain and his accuracy. Not a rocket arm, but a good enough arm to get everything done.

There are tons of guys that get comped to NFL studs that flop. That's just the nature of the game.

(04-17-2020, 01:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: You did the ninja so I won't take that too seriously lol

Who is your comparison TLL?

- - - - - - - - -

I don't know, I don't think Gil Brandt is too far off with his souped up Dalton with a higher ceiling comparison. I also don't think comparing a QB prospect to Dalton is a bad thing. He didn't have elite arm strength, but he had all the tools he needed to be a top Tier 2 QB on a competently run team.
Accurate
Smart
Good Decision Maker
Decent But Not Great Arm Strength
Hard Worker
Leader
Winner
Can Give A Good Scramble At Times
Those were all things said about Dalton coming out of college, and now they're being said about Burrow. I think the main advantage Burrow has is he's a bit taller and he's coming out of a Pro offense. The main disadvantage Burrow has is his exceedingly punchable face and he had a team that was way more talented than it's opponents.

(04-17-2020, 05:04 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:

- - - - - - - - -

I don't know, I don't think Gil Brandt is too far off with his souped up Dalton with a higher ceiling comparison. I also don't think comparing a QB prospect to Dalton is a bad thing. He didn't have elite arm strength, but he had all the tools he needed to be a top Tier 2 QB on a competently run team.
Accurate
Smart
Good Decision Maker
Decent But Not Great Arm Strength
Hard Worker
Leader
Winner
Can Give A Good Scramble At Times
Those were all things said about Dalton coming out of college, and now they're being said about Burrow. I think the main advantage Burrow has is he's a bit taller and he's coming out of a Pro offense. The main disadvantage Burrow has is his exceedingly punchable face and he had a team that was way more talented than it's opponents.

Umm...no he didn’t. Look at Alabama’s roster. Watch how many of their players will go high in the draft. Clemson was stacked as well. If you want to call it a draw ok (I’d disagree) but LSU absolutely did not have the best roster in the country.

(04-17-2020, 05:09 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Umm...no he didn’t. Look at Alabama’s roster. Watch how many of their players will go high in the draft. Clemson was stacked as well. If you want to call it a draw ok (I’d disagree) but LSU absolutely did not have the best roster in the country.

You just named one team. Don't forget to also look at:
Georgia Southern
Texas
Northwestern St
Vanderbilt
Utah St
Florida
Mississippi St
Auburn 
Alabama
Ole Miss
Arkansas
Texas A&M
Georgia
Oklahoma

- - - - - - - - - - - -
College football isn't known for parity. It's the same knock on all QBs coming from teams loaded with top end NFL talent. LSU is looking at having like 4 1st rounders, 3 2nd rounders, and 3 3rd rounders in this draft alone. It the same reason why OSU QBs struggle in the NFL. Crushing inferior talent doesn't prepare you for NFL parity.

Brady went to Michigan
Brees went to Perdue
Wilson went to NC State 3yr/Wisconsin 1yr
Rodgers went to California

Those schools have a combined 0 National Championships since 2000 and the only one of those four QBs to win one was Brady (who was a backup that threw 15 passes that year). I'm not saying that being on a super team in CFB is a terrible thing, I am just saying you have to acknowledge that those teams normally don't ever play opponents of equal talent levels. (See: AJ McCarron, Tim Tebow)

(04-16-2020, 09:23 PM)Synric Wrote: It's a poor player comparison.

Gil Brandt is basing the entire thing off three attributes. Football IQ, Accuracy, and Arm Strength. Under just those 3 conditions you can say yes Andy Dalton.... but Burrow has alot more going for him than those 3. Burrow also has excellent pocket presence combined with top field vision so while Dalton is all pre snap get thr ball out quick Burrow will hold on set up his blocks in protection like a RB and take shots down field accurately. He also makes a ton of plays off script.

It's funny because there is a QB alot like Dalton in this draft...His name is Tua Tagovailoa. Tua is a pre- snap guy gets the ball out quickly to his receivers. He is good against the blitz because of his pre snap recognition and ability to get the ball out fast and on time. Now when the play breaks down Tua struggles he doesnt have the accuracy or vision outside of the pocket.

Great post and I agree 100%. There are physical similarities, but from what I've seen, Burrow is fearless in the pocket and better at improvising off script. Unscripted plays were never Dalton's strength. I'd say they were one of his biggest weaknesses and what kept him from ever vaulting into the top 10 QB's. That may change if Burrow gets pummeled 40-50 times though, so hopefully we don't test his ability in that department TOO much.

(04-16-2020, 10:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I would hope even the biggest Dalton fans would agree you don’t take an Andy Dalton with the #1OA pick. Even at Dalton’s absolute best he was just a borderline top 10, MVP conversation type player. At #1 you need to have a much higher ceiling than that. And Burrow clearly does.

Brandt also compared Burrow to Peyton Manning, so he’s kind of all over the place. Lol

Also fair. You draft a guy this high because he has the attributes/makeup to be elite. Dalton was a ready made NFL QB, but he didn't possess this kind of ceiling. That's why he was viewed as a late 1st/early 2nd type of prospect.

(04-17-2020, 12:07 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Romo is probably Burrow’s floor. I have seen that comparison, and I don’t really hate it.

Romo was a fantastic QB. Arguably elite.

He just couldn't win in the playoffs, which is a problem I don't think Burrow will have...assuming solid coaching and decent talent around him.

Burrow just exudes a natural leadership quality that I don't think QB's like Romo (or Dalton) possessed.

(04-17-2020, 07:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You just named one team. Don't forget to also look at:
Georgia Southern
Texas
Northwestern St
Vanderbilt
Utah St
Florida
Mississippi St
Auburn 
Alabama
Ole Miss
Arkansas
Texas A&M
Georgia
Oklahoma

- - - - - - - - - - - -
College football isn't known for parity. It's the same knock on all QBs coming from teams loaded with top end NFL talent. LSU is looking at having like 4 1st rounders, 3 2nd rounders, and 3 3rd rounders in this draft alone. It the same reason why OSU QBs struggle in the NFL. Crushing inferior talent doesn't prepare you for NFL parity.

Brady went to Michigan
Brees went to Perdue
Wilson went to NC State 3yr/Wisconsin 1yr
Rodgers went to California

Those schools have a combined 0 National Championships since 2000 and the only one of those four QBs to win one was Brady (who was a backup that threw 15 passes that year). I'm not saying that being on a super team in CFB is a terrible thing, I am just saying you have to acknowledge that those teams normally don't ever play opponents of equal talent levels. (See: AJ McCarron, Tim Tebow)

So, what are you getting at?  Don't draft him?  He's no good or overrated?  Or is it that we as Bengal fans have no right to be excited or hopeful or feel good about anything?  What is it you're working so hard to prove and why are you going to these lengths?

All the googling, all the typing. What is this mission you're on?

(04-17-2020, 07:14 PM)McC Wrote: So, what are you getting at?  Don't draft him?  He's no good or overrated?  Or is it that we as Bengal fans have no right to be excited or hopeful or feel good about anything?  What is it you're working so hard to prove and why are you going to these lengths?  

All the googling, all the typing.  What is this mission you're on?

It's a mission to get you to not bother reading my posts before you overreact with hyperbole. 

Thus far the mission is obviously a smashing success, because I specifically said in the post you quoted that it's not a terrible thing to be on a super team in college. I also said in an earlier post in this thread that I agree that he'll be a souped up Dalton with a higher ceiling. None of that suggests that I am "getting at" he's no good or overrated. 

It DOES suggest that maybe your time with the wife isn't going so well during your stay-at-home, so you're being a pissy ***** who won't get off my D on here, following me to every conversation I have with other people to quote me and then imply I said things that are nowhere in said quotes.



- - - - - - - -

Or you know, it's a mission to temper expectations of Burrow further away from Football Jesus and closer to reality while engaging in football discussion using researched facts, comparisons, historical examples, and overall good data.... rather than hopes, wishes, dreams, and fairy dust. 

At this rate even if he throws 40 TDs and 10 INT, it's going to be a letdown for some because of this mythological buildup that he's going to be Moses leading the Bengals through the desert to the promised land.

This is a guy who was considered a 4th round pick less than a calendar year ago. This is a coaching staff with zero success. This is a FO with 30 years of failure. This is a football league where the majority of QBs (even 1st overall QBs) don't live up to their hype or potential. That's just reality.

(04-17-2020, 07:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: You just named one team. Don't forget to also look at:
Georgia Southern
Texas
Northwestern St
Vanderbilt
Utah St
Florida
Mississippi St
Auburn 
Alabama
Ole Miss
Arkansas
Texas A&M
Georgia
Oklahoma

- - - - - - - - - - - -
College football isn't known for parity. It's the same knock on all QBs coming from teams loaded with top end NFL talent. LSU is looking at having like 4 1st rounders, 3 2nd rounders, and 3 3rd rounders in this draft alone. It the same reason why OSU QBs struggle in the NFL. Crushing inferior talent doesn't prepare you for NFL parity.

Brady went to Michigan
Brees went to Perdue
Wilson went to NC State 3yr/Wisconsin 1yr
Rodgers went to California

Those schools have a combined 0 National Championships since 2000 and the only one of those four QBs to win one was Brady (who was a backup that threw 15 passes that year). I'm not saying that being on a super team in CFB is a terrible thing, I am just saying you have to acknowledge that those teams normally don't ever play opponents of equal talent levels. (See: AJ McCarron, Tim Tebow)

I don’t really follow what listing all those teams proves...

As far as knocking QB’s for playing on a championship team, it hasn’t hurt Deshaun Watson. He’s one of the best young QB’s in the league right now. Cam Newton won an MVP and went to a Super Bowl. Peyton Manning played at Tennessee who won one the year after he left.

(04-17-2020, 07:34 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It's a mission to get you to not bother reading my posts before you overreact with hyperbole. 

Thus far the mission is obviously a smashing success, because I specifically said in the post you quoted that it's not a terrible thing to be on a super team in college. I also said in an earlier post in this thread that I agree that he'll be a souped up Dalton with a higher ceiling. None of that suggests that I am "getting at" he's no good or overrated. 

It DOES suggest that maybe your time with the wife isn't going so well during your stay-at-home, so you're being a pissy ***** who won't get off my D on here, following me to every conversation I have with other people to quote me and then imply I said things that are nowhere in said quotes.



- - - - - - - -

Or you know, it's a mission to temper expectations of Burrow further away from Football Jesus and closer to reality while engaging in football discussion using researched facts, comparisons, historical examples, and overall good data.... rather than hopes, wishes, dreams, and fairy dust. 

At this rate even if he throws 40 TDs and 10 INT, it's going to be a letdown for some because of this mythological buildup that he's going to be Moses leading the Bengals through the desert to the promised land.

This is a guy who was considered a 4th round pick less than a calendar year ago. This is a coaching staff with zero success. This is a FO with 30 years of failure. This is a football league where the majority of QBs (even 1st overall QBs) don't live up to their hype or potential. That's just reality.

Why the hell does it hurt your very soul for a Bengal fan to be psyched about something?  Is that your self-appointed destiny--squasher of dreams, stomper of hope and happiness?  Not the most noble of pursuits.  Get over yourself, man.

They are both kinda athletic and don't have cannons for arms. That's about all the similarities I can find between Dalton and Burrow. They are VERY different players. Burrow is not a souped-up or any other type of version of Dalton. Burrow's style of play is nothing like Dalton's and the biggest mistake the Bengals could make is to try to make Joe Burrow play like Andy Dalton.

(04-17-2020, 08:11 PM)McC Wrote: Why the hell does it hurt your very soul for a Bengal fan to be psyched about something?  Is that your self-appointed destiny--squasher of dreams, stomper of hope and happiness?  Not the most noble of pursuits.  Get over yourself, man.

Why the hell does it hurt your very soul for a Bengal fan to have a differing opinion on Burrow on this website? Is that your self-appointed destiny--stalker of dissenters, user of hyperbolic mis-quotes? Not the most noble of pursuits. Get over yourself, man.