(05-16-2020, 01:46 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: If you honestly think Tobin (and Marvin) wouldn’t have liked the ability to bring in better FA’s over the years idk what to tell you. It’s obvious who controlled that. The man with the money.

Except everyone that covers the team has repeatedly stated that Mike doesn't run the team on the daily basis. 
The Blackburn's deserve criticism as well but so does Tobin.

(05-16-2020, 01:52 PM)J24 Wrote: Except everyone that covers the team has repeatedly stated that Mike doesn't run the team on the daily basis. 
The Blackburn's deserve criticism as well but so does Tobin.

Signing FA’s is not a day-to-day operation though. It’s big picture stuff, with tons of money involved. Mike's money.

Or do you think Duke Tobin has the power to sign FA’s without Mike’s say? And he just decided after all these years to go out and spend 150m dollars in one offseason? Or did Mike realize 4 losing seasons in a row, and an empty stadium is really starting to hurt his bank account...

(05-16-2020, 10:22 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Technically, out of Burfict, we got 1 Elite year (2013), 

No coincidence that in 2013 we had our highest rated defense in the last 34 years even with Atkins out for half the year.

Burfict was a game changer.  He has another year or two like '13 then he is in the conversation with Kuechly as the best LB in the league.

(05-16-2020, 01:10 PM)J24 Wrote: Evan Mathis was also on the list. 

Mathis was a mess before he came to the Bengals.  Cut by two teams (Carolina, Miami) in two years.

Came out of nowhere to play great for us in 2009 starting the first half of the season before getting injured.  

Again we only get one year out of an elite player because he came back fat and sloppy in 2010.

(05-16-2020, 02:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Mathis was a mess before he came to the Bengals.  Cut by two teams (Carolina, Miami) in two years.

Came out of nowhere to play great for us in 2009 starting the first half of the season before getting injured.  

Again we only get one year out of an elite player because he came back fat and sloppy in 2010.

How does that change the fact that he was on the list? 

(05-16-2020, 02:23 PM)J24 Wrote: How does that change the fact that he was on the list? 

It doesn't.

It was just exposition on Mathis's time with the Bengals.

(05-16-2020, 01:59 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Signing FA’s is not a day-to-day operation though. It’s big picture stuff, with tons of money involved. Mike's money.

Or do you think Duke Tobin has the power to sign FA’s without Mike’s say? And he just decided after all these years to go out and spend 150m dollars in one offseason? Or did Mike realize 4 losing seasons in a row, and an empty stadium is really starting to hurt his bank account...

I think Duke is the defacto GM of the team and is heavily respected by Mike and given a ton of responsibility by Mike regarding personal. I also think that Taylor was Tobin's pick for head coach.

As far as this seasons free agency spending freeze goes it was more about appeasing Burrow and trying convince Him that this is right place for him then anything else. I think they felt legit heat that he could force his way out.

It sounds like both Whit and Geno could be in the HOF. I don’t think AJ gets there.

(05-16-2020, 01:18 PM)J24 Wrote: Well he did let 3 of those guys go. Like I always said good drafter bad at signing free agents.

We can do that for all the teams.. and I would not say letting a guy you resigned 3 times means you let him go.. Whit played 11 years here.. 

(05-16-2020, 09:10 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: We can do that for all the teams.. and I would not say letting a guy you resigned 3 times means you let him go.. Whit played 11 years here.. 

Losing Whitworth was dumb plain and simple same goes with Joseph. I'll give you that Marvin Jones was a tough guy to resign because he wanted to be a #1 and that wasn't going to happen here with AJ.
Also we haven't made the playoffs in 4 seasons and are coming off a 2-14 season anywhere else the GM would get some blame.

(05-16-2020, 10:38 PM)J24 Wrote: Losing Whitworth was dumb plain and simple same goes with Joseph. I'll give you that Marvin Jones was a tough guy to resign because he wanted to be a #1 and that wasn't going to happen here with AJ.
Also we haven't made the playoffs in 4 seasons and are coming off a 2-14 season anywhere else the GM would get some blame.

I so disagree with Whit.. in a general sense it was time to draft his replacement, we offered him a 1 year contract makes sense after drafting two tackles 1/2 round.. the problem were the tackles ended up being terrible... 

For example why did we draft Whit??  to replace Willie.. and Whit worked out.. if Cedric worked out, we would not be having this discussion...

As for Joseph, i would have hoped to keep him but I believe Texas outbid us for him but i could be wrong and we had 3   1st round corners.. Adam Jones on the cheap and Hall was a year behind so we had his contract coming up.. 

We can;t sign everyone and hindsight is easy to forget about the situations at the time...

(05-17-2020, 11:14 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I so disagree with Whit.. in a general sense it was time to draft his replacement, we offered him a 1 year contract makes sense after drafting two tackles 1/2 round.. the problem were the tackles ended up being terrible... 

For example why did we draft Whit??  to replace Willie.. and Whit worked out.. if Cedric worked out, we would not be having this discussion...

As for Joseph, i would have hoped to keep him but I believe Texas outbid us for him but i could be wrong and we had 3   1st round corners.. Adam Jones on the cheap and Hall was a year behind so we had his contract coming up.. 

We can;t sign everyone and hindsight is easy to forget about the situations at the time...

Anyone who thought it was time for Whit to move should also be for moving on from AJ. Whit was coming off of an All Pro year and AJ has been hurt for the last 1 1/2 seasons. I get the age difference but the position is different too and you lose speed faster than strength. Whit also could have moved to guard if he regressed at tackle. Whit had as great, if not a better Bengal Career than AJ did. It’s just not as flashy of a position.

(05-17-2020, 11:14 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I so disagree with Whit.. in a general sense it was time to draft his replacement, we offered him a 1 year contract makes sense after drafting two tackles 1/2 round.. the problem were the tackles ended up being terrible... 

For example why did we draft Whit??  to replace Willie.. and Whit worked out.. if Cedric worked out, we would not be having this discussion...

As for Joseph, i would have hoped to keep him but I believe Texas outbid us for him but i could be wrong and we had 3   1st round corners.. Adam Jones on the cheap and Hall was a year behind so we had his contract coming up.. 

We can;t sign everyone and hindsight is easy to forget about the situations at the time...

Except Whit played LG and wasn't a dumpster fire before he replaced Willie. Meanwhile we saw two years of Ogbuehi and he was absolutely terrible. That isn't hindsight to say letting an All-Pro LT go to start Ogbuehi was a terrible idea.

Sorry, but I just hate when people try to use the "hindsight" argument when it is something that wasn't hindsight because it was blatantly obvious from the get-go.

(05-17-2020, 11:31 AM)Circleville Guy Wrote: Anyone who thought it was time for Whit to move should also be for moving on from AJ. Whit was coming off of an All Pro year and AJ has been hurt for the last 1 1/2 seasons. I get the age difference but the position is different too and you lose speed faster than strength. Whit also could have moved to guard if he regressed at tackle. Whit had as great, if not a better Bengal Career than AJ did. It’s just not as flashy of a position.

AJ is 31 years old, and probably still has at least a few good years left in him. Julian Edelman missed the entire 2017 season, and came back the next year and won Super Bowl MVP. At 32. And AJ is on a another level compared to Edelman.

I understand not wanting to pay AJ big money, but wanting to just wash your hands of him and move on no matter what makes no sense to me. If he stays healthy and plays all season, and he’ll sign a reasonable deal to stay here, we absolutely should do it. Especially if he gets help from guys like Boyd, Tee, and Mixon, and doesn’t have to carry the offense so much anymore.

(05-17-2020, 03:13 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Julian Edelman missed the entire 2017 season, and came back the next year and won Super Bowl MVP.

Yeah, because he was using PEDs.  Anf he had only missed one season.

Also, using Edelman to prove that a 32 year old wide receiver will be fine after an injury is like using Tom Brady to prove that a QB taken in the sixth round this year will be a Hall of Famer.

(05-17-2020, 11:32 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except Whit played LG and wasn't a dumpster fire before he replaced Willie. Meanwhile we saw two years of Ogbuehi and he was absolutely terrible. That isn't hindsight to say letting an All-Pro LT go to start Ogbuehi was a terrible idea.

Sorry, but I just hate when people try to use the "hindsight" argument when it is something that wasn't hindsight because it was blatantly obvious from the get-go.

This is not even related to what i was saying... Willie was 30/31 when we drafted Whit.. Willie was still playing well but age and a upcoming contract makes it smart to draft a possible replacement... Whit was older and with contract coming up and age was smart to do the same..  We did offer Whit a one year which again if i just drafted two tackles i probably not want to offer him a 3 year.. maybe we could have worked out a 2 year and maybe they discussed it.. not sure..

Hindsight is what it is.. the picks at Tackle did not work out.. and I love those revisionist (who look back and say never should have drafted a tackle etc... )  Both Cedric (5/6) and Fisher were in top 10 tackles in most draft boards.. I guess your board had them at Busts?  

(05-17-2020, 04:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, because he was using PEDs.  Anf he had only missed one season.

Also, using Edelman to prove that a 32 year old wide receiver will be fine after an injury is like using Tom Brady to prove that a QB taken in the sixth round this year will be a Hall of Famer.

No it’s not. Also, Edelman has missed a ton of games over the years. Way more than one season.

There’s countless WR’s that played at a high level well into their 30’s: Larry Fitzgerald, Steve Smith, Jerry Rice, TO, Keyshawn Johnson, Joey Galloway, Derrick Mason, Randy Moss, Anquan Boldin...

(05-17-2020, 04:39 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: This is not even related to what i was saying... Willie was 30/31 when we drafted Whit.. Willie was still playing well but age and a upcoming contract makes it smart to draft a possible replacement... Whit was older and with contract coming up and age was smart to do the same..  We did offer Whit a one year which again if i just drafted two tackles i probably not want to offer him a 3 year.. maybe we could have worked out a 2 year and maybe they discussed it.. not sure..

Hindsight is what it is.. the picks at Tackle did not work out.. and I love those revisionist (who look back and say never should have drafted a tackle etc... )  Both Cedric (5/6) and Fisher were in top 10 tackles in most draft boards.. I guess your board had them at Busts?  

Nowhere in my post did I say that they shouldn't have drafted them, but Ogbuehi and Fisher were both heading into *YEAR 3* when they let Whit go. 

You don't watch a player be absolutely terrible for 2 years... and then double down on it by letting your All-Pro leave so they can start. That disaster was extremely easy to predict at that point.

If Ogbuehi or Fisher showed ANYTHING in those 2 years, you could have possibly argued "hindsight" on letting Whit walk, but they didn't, so it wasn't hindsight. 

If a player is Ogbuehi levels of terrible, you don't cut an All-Pro so they can start just because you drafted them in the 1st round. It is okay to just cut your losses with the bust, admit you were wrong, and keep playing the All-Pro. That's what they should have done and there's no hindsight needed to say that.

(05-17-2020, 05:27 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No it’s not. Also, Edelman has missed a ton of games over the years. Way more than one season.

The year before missing the entire 2017 season Edelman played in all 16 games.  Green has not played since the first half of the 2018 season

(05-17-2020, 05:27 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: There’s countless WR’s that played at a high level well into their 30’s: Larry Fitzgerald, Steve Smith, Jerry Rice, TO, Keyshawn Johnson, Joey Galloway, Derrick Mason, Randy Moss, Anquan Boldin...

Over the last decade there have been 81 WRs that had a 1000 yard season.  Only 5 have done it when older than 32 (Anquan Bolden, Reggie Wayne, Julian Edelman, Steve Smith, Larry Fitzgerald).

It is not impossible, but you can't act like it has happened "countless" times.

(05-18-2020, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The year before missing the entire 2017 season Edelman played in all 16 games.  Green has not played since the first half of the 2018 season




Over the last decade there have been 81 WRs that had a 1000 yard season.  Only 5 have done it when older than 32 (Anquan Bolden, Reggie Wayne, Julian Edelman, Steve Smith, Larry Fitzgerald).

It is not impossible, but you can't act like it has happened "countless" times.

That’s a hell of a lot more examples (especially in just your cherry picked 10 year timeframe) than finding a HoF QB in the 6th round, which was the ridiculous comparison you made.