(05-17-2020, 09:17 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Nowhere in my post did I say that they shouldn't have drafted them, but Ogbuehi and Fisher were both heading into *YEAR 3* when they let Whit go. 

You don't watch a player be absolutely terrible for 2 years... and then double down on it by letting your All-Pro leave so they can start. That disaster was extremely easy to predict at that point.

If Ogbuehi or Fisher showed ANYTHING in those 2 years, you could have possibly argued "hindsight" on letting Whit walk, but they didn't, so it wasn't hindsight. 

If a player is Ogbuehi levels of terrible, you don't cut an All-Pro so they can start just because you drafted them in the 1st round. It is okay to just cut your losses with the bust, admit you were wrong, and keep playing the All-Pro. That's what they should have done and there's no hindsight needed to say that.

Well major problem with your argument..year 1 for our 1srt round  sine he was hurt in 1st yearso guessing you are using hindsight he would be bad in year 2.. and again they offered Whit a contract.. just forgot about that one again too.. man 

(05-15-2020, 04:31 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Geno, AJ, and Dunlap all made the list (as did Big Whit).

31. DI GENO ATKINS

No interior defender notched more total pressures over the past decade than Geno Atkins, who pressured the quarterback 577 times across 10 seasons. In fact, he finished the decade with 68 more pressures than any other interior pass-rusher, which, as a figure in itself, would have ranked second only to Aaron Donald in 2019. Atkins also owns one of the best single seasons we have ever seen from a defensive tackle, back when he posted a grade of 93.9 in 2012. Atkins graded above 90.0 three times in the decade and has been a consistently dominant force as a pass-rusher.


38. WR A.J. GREEN

If you set the threshold high enough, only Julio Jones and Antonio Brown gained more yards per route run than A.J. Green did over the past decade (2.39). That’s about the best way of summing up Green’s decade, as being right there with the very best — and most productive — receivers in football. We were robbed of a whole season-plus of his play due to injury over the past couple of years, but Green has been one of the toughest covers for defenses since he entered the NFL.


89. EDGE CARLOS DUNLAP

One of the most underrated players of his generation, Carlos Dunlap has been a consistently excellent player in the NFL for the entire decade. Drafted in 2010, Dunlap has never had an overall PFF grade below 70.0. That comes on the back of nine straight seasons with 45 or more total pressures, topping out with 80 back in 2015 when he, along with most of the Bengals, enjoyed career seasons. Dunlap has been an impressive run defender and pass rusher, but he doesn’t get the credit he deserves because his best play falls just short of the top players at the position.


https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-all-decade-top-101-best-nfl-players-2010s

That's pretty impressive when you consider the sheer number of players who have passed through the league in ten years.

(05-17-2020, 03:13 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: AJ is 31 years old, and probably still has at least a few good years left in him. Julian Edelman missed the entire 2017 season, and came back the next year and won Super Bowl MVP. At 32. And AJ is on a another level compared to Edelman.

I understand not wanting to pay AJ big money, but wanting to just wash your hands of him and move on no matter what makes no sense to me. If he stays healthy and plays all season, and he’ll sign a reasonable deal to stay here, we absolutely should do it. Especially if he gets help from guys like Boyd, Tee, and Mixon, and doesn’t have to carry the offense so mucymore.

He will actually be 32 when the season starts, not that it’s a big difference. I just don’t think that he will sign a reasonable deal. There was a plan B for the All Pro Tackle if his play slipped at the Tackle position. He could’ve easily played Guard for a couple of years. What’s Plan B for the guy that missed the last 1 1/2 years at WR? I’m just saying that the wrong approach was probably made on both guys. AJ may play great all year and I will humbly eat my words. I do admire the loyalty to AJ but if he is hurt this year and still wants big money then it becomes blind loyalty. I just see more value in spending that much money in other areas and on guys that didn’t miss the last 1 1/2 years. I hope that he can play great for the next 2-4 years. I’m an odds person though and I don’t think that those odds are too good. For 18 Million dollars, he better put up some big yards and play a huge part in several wins. That’s 1/10th of the team’s payroll.

(05-18-2020, 04:35 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: He will actually be 32 when the season starts, not that it’s a big difference. I just don’t think that he will sign a reasonable deal. There was a plan B for the All Pro Tackle if his play slipped at the Tackle position. He could’ve easily played Guard for a couple of years. What’s Plan B for the guy that missed the last 1 1/2 years at WR? I’m just saying that the wrong approach was probably made on both guys. AJ may play great all year and I will humbly eat my words. I do admire the loyalty to AJ but if he is hurt this year and still wants big money then it becomes blind loyalty. I just see more value in spending that much money in other areas and on guys that didn’t miss the last 1 1/2 years. I hope that he can play great for the next 2-4 years. I’m an odds person though and I don’t think that those odds are too good.

And what are the odds of replacing a player the caliber of AJ with another at a similar level? 7x Pro Bowlers are not easy to come by. You saw what PFF wrote, he’s been right there with AB and Julio as one of the toughest covers in the league over the last decade. I hope Tee Higgins is a future #1, but we’ve been absolutely spoiled between Chad and AJ. And there’s no guarantee we’re going to have another WR that good anytime soon (look at Ross). I just wish people would wait and see how he looks first, and then we can go from there. Guys like you and Fred are acting like it’s a foregone conclusion he’ll get hurt again. We haven’t seen any decline in his play yet though. He was on pace for 1400 yds and 12 TD at 30 years old in 2018. As far as his contract goes, now is the time you can overpay guys like Reader, Waynes, AJ, etc, because of Burrow’s rookie contract. It just can’t be stressed enough how much of an advantage that is.

(05-18-2020, 03:23 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well major problem with your argument..year 1 for our 1srt round  sine he was hurt in 1st yearso guessing you are using hindsight he would be bad in year 2.. and again they offered Whit a contract.. just forgot about that one again too.. man 

Well major problem with your argument..

Year 1: Ogbuehi played in 5 games, taking 65 terrible snaps on offense.
Year 2: Ogbuehi played in 14 games, starting 12, taking 677 terrible snaps on offense.
Year 3: *Andrew Whitworth Leaves*

He was heading into his 3rd year, not his 1st. IT'S NOT HINDSIGHT. OGBUEHI HAD ALREADY PLAYED 742 OFFENSIVE SNAPS OVER 2 YEARS PRIOR TO WHITWORTH LEAVING.

Jesus, how clear can I be on this?

- - - - - - -

If you offer an All-Pro a lowball 1 year contract, well below the other 3-4 offers he got, that's your fault, not his.

https://bengalswire.usatoday.com/2018/12/04/andrew-whitworth-reveals-bengals-lowballed-him-contract-discussions/

....just forgot about that one again too... man.

(05-18-2020, 05:00 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Well major problem with your argument..

Year 1: Ogbuehi played in 5 games, taking 65 terrible snaps on offense.
Year 2: Ogbuehi played in 14 games, starting 12, taking 677 terrible snaps on offense.
Year 3: *Andrew Whitworth Leaves*

He was heading into his 3rd year, not his 1st. IT'S NOT HINDSIGHT. OGBUEHI HAD ALREADY PLAYED 742 OFFENSIVE SNAPS OVER 2 YEARS PRIOR TO WHITWORTH LEAVING.

Jesus, how clear can I be on this?

- - - - - - -

If you offer an All-Pro a lowball 1 year contract, well below the other 3-4 offers he got, that's your fault, not his.

https://bengalswire.usatoday.com/2018/12/04/andrew-whitworth-reveals-bengals-lowballed-him-contract-discussions/

....just forgot about that one again too... man.

While I absolutely agree on the premise (and you're right about after year 2, we needed to see no more), he didn't have 65 terrible snaps in 2015; he came in as an extra T and heavy TE and he played fairly decently, in the small sample size.

(05-18-2020, 04:59 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And what are the odds of replacing a player the caliber of AJ with another at a similar level? 7x Pro Bowlers are not easy to come by. You saw what PFF wrote, he’s been right there with AB and Julio as one of the toughest covers in the league over the last decade. I hope Tee Higgins is a future #1, but we’ve been absolutely spoiled between Chad and AJ. And there’s no guarantee we’re going to have another WR that good anytime soon (look at Ross). I just wish people would wait and see how he looks first, and then we can go from there. Guys like you and Fred are acting like it’s a foregone conclusion he’ll get hurt again. We haven’t seen any decline in his play yet though. He was on pace for 1400 yds and 12 TD at 30 years old in 2018. As far as his contract goes, now is the time you can overpay guys like Reader, Waynes, AJ, etc, because of Burrow’s rookie contract. It just can’t be stressed enough how much of an advantage that is.

You’re assuming that AJ is the same player after the injuries and a couple of years of aging. Most fans on here look back instead of looking forward when it comes to AJ. He is here, so there’s probably no point in me saying what they should’ve done. I’m curious as to what numbers and percentage of play would be considered a success to you? What should the 18 million buy? I’m talking numbers and not what helping a rookie QB means to some fans. There are several coaches paid to do that job. A low end success would be 1200 Yards and being healthy and available for 80% of the games. Is that reasonable for 18 million? The money has to be a factor because there’s good Oline players that could be added with that money. I know there’s cap available but maybe Mike has a reason to stay where he’s at with that. The cap shouldn’t be relevant anyways.. that’s just more good rotation pieces that could be added. I’m not trying to fire you up but I’m curious as to what will make this a good move keeping AJ this year?

(05-18-2020, 05:28 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: You’re assuming that AJ is the same player after the injuries and a couple of years of aging. Most fans on here look back instead of looking forward when it comes to AJ. He is here, so there’s probably no point in me saying what they should’ve done. I’m curious as to what numbers and percentage of play would be considered a success to you? What should the 18 million buy? I’m talking numbers and not what helping a rookie QB means to some fans. There are several coaches paid to do that job. A low end success would be 1200 Yards and being healthy and available for 80% of the games. Is that reasonable for 18 million? The money has to be a factor because there’s good Oline players that could be added with that money. I know there’s cap available but maybe Mike has a reason to stay where he’s at with that. The cap shouldn’t be relevant anyways.. that’s just more good rotation pieces that could be added. I’m not trying to fire you up but I’m curious as to what will make this a good move keeping AJ this year?

And you’re assuming that being 18 months older is going to result in a significant decline in his play. I just don’t see that being the case. AJ is a special talent. Even if he has lost a step or two he’ll still be better than the majority of WR’s in the league.

Also, AJ’s money didn’t stop them from adding to the OL. They could easily use Dalton’s money to do so, but they’re stubbornly standing pat with the guys they have. Why are you singling out AJ’s money here? This is how sports work these days. You get paid off your past. That’s why AJ and Geno make the most money on the team, and the guy who’s arguably our best player (Mixon) is making peanuts.

As for what would qualify as a successful season for AJ? I’d be happy 1k+ yds 14+ games. Having AJ on the field is going to open up other guys though, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see Boyd have a career year, or for Tee, Tate, and Ross to see their fair share of balls.

(05-18-2020, 05:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And you’re assuming that being 18 months older is going to result in a significant decline in his play. I just don’t see that being the case. AJ is a special talent. Even if he has lost a step or two he’ll still be better than the majority of WR’s in the league.

Also, AJ’s money didn’t stop them from adding to the OL. They could easily use Dalton’s money to do so, but they’re stubbornly standing pat with the guys they have. Why are you singling out AJ’s money here? This is how sports work these days. You get paid off your past. That’s why AJ and Geno make the most money on the team, and the guy who’s arguably our best player (Mixon) is making peanuts.

As for what would qualify as a successful season for AJ? I’d be happy 1k+ yds 14+ games. Having AJ on the field is going to open up other guys though, so I wouldn’t be surprised to see Boyd have a career year, or for Tee, Tate, and Ross to see their fair share of balls.

I’m assuming that 18 months of age and injuries could slow him down and that the injuries could linger. I’m singling out AJ because he makes 1/10th of the teams salary and that money could be better spent. I respect your opinion on keeping him. It’s a done deal so we can watch it play out. I do hope that you’re right and that I am wrong.