(10-21-2015, 12:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: C'mom man. The funny thing is ToastJones wasn't necessarily wrong in prior years. His analysis of Dalton and the Bengals the past 4 years were pretty much on point. This is the first year that people like me and Toast are being proven wrong and for that we are ecstatic because it means the Bengals and Dalton are playing extremely well.  

The homers are the ones who have issues and always want to argue even when there is nothing to argue about. Look I'll be the first to admit just like Toast that I never saw this version of Dalton coming, especially after the horrendous season he had last year but for that I'm happy and am glad he's proving me wrong....all of you should just accept that move on.

As others have mentioned if a mediocre QB comes out and plays lights out that doesn't make his past performance better. 

I too did not think he was capable of this level of play.  Many times I said "I hope he proves me wrong".  The obvious question is, if he falters, which I absolutely hope he does not, how many "I was wrong" posts will we see from certain other people??

(10-21-2015, 12:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: C'mom man. The funny thing is ToastJones wasn't necessarily wrong in prior years. His analysis of Dalton and the Bengals the past 4 years were pretty much on point. This is the first year that people like me and Toast are being proven wrong and for that we are ecstatic because it means the Bengals and Dalton are playing extremely well.  

The homers are the ones who have issues and always want to argue even when there is nothing to argue about. Look I'll be the first to admit just like Toast that I never saw this version of Dalton coming, especially after the horrendous season he had last year but for that I'm happy and am glad he's proving me wrong....all of you should just accept that move on.

As others have mentioned if a mediocre QB comes out and plays lights out that doesn't make his past performance better. 

That's the issue though. A certain person or two will flip out that you mentioned "this version of Dalton", because they honestly believe he has always been this good but have just had excuses for the guy. It's sort of gross and sad.

WhoDeyWho claims he was "never wrong" and "didn't overrate Andy", yet everyone else is "wrong" for their past analysis. Suuuuuuure thing, it must be nice living in that fantasy world.

(10-21-2015, 12:17 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I too did not think he was capable of this level of play.  Many times I said "I hope he proves me wrong".  The obvious question is, if he falters, which I absolutely hope he does not, how many "I was wrong" posts will we see from certain other people??

Somewhere right around zero, if I had to guess.

They'll whine and make excuses blaming everyone around him. Mark it down. "OMG WELL ANDY DIDN'T HAVE A CLEAN POCKET LIKE ALMOST EVER" will be things you hear regardless of what actually happens in the game.

That's not to say that about the guys that have always been fair about Andy, but his 3-4 biggest nuthuggers on here that are obsessed with telling people "told you so" after just 6 weeks could be in for a rude awakening. But, it's not like any of them would actually come on here and admit being wrong, they'd just pass the blame to others anyway. Either way, they'll never be "wrong" with their bag of excuses.

(10-21-2015, 12:11 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: C'mom man. The funny thing is ToastJones wasn't necessarily wrong in prior years. His analysis of Dalton and the Bengals the past 4 years were pretty much on point. This is the first year that people like me and Toast are being proven wrong and for that we are ecstatic because it means the Bengals and Dalton are playing extremely well.  

The homers are the ones who have issues and always want to argue even when there is nothing to argue about. Look I'll be the first to admit just like Toast that I never saw this version of Dalton coming, especially after the horrendous season he had last year but for that I'm happy and am glad he's proving me wrong....all of you should just accept that move on.

As others have mentioned if a mediocre QB comes out and plays lights out that doesn't make his past performance better. It just goes to show you that he's improved and is playing well. Let's just hope it continues and he's finally the QB that all of us want him to be.

It's easy to criticize and be cynical when the team has lost 4 straight playoff games.  Criticism and cynicism is all Toast really had to offer in my opinion.  Fortunately he's been proven very wrong in terms of Dalton and management. 

You obviously had way too high of expectations for a QB coming into the situation that Dalton came into.  Regardless, his numbers in his first 4 years rival some of the best who have ever played. 

(10-21-2015, 12:21 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Somewhere right around zero, if I had to guess.

They'll whine and make excuses blaming everyone around him. Mark it down. "OMG WELL ANDY DIDN'T HAVE A CLEAN POCKET LIKE ALMOST EVER" will be things you hear regardless of what actually happens in the game.

That's not to say that about the guys that have always been fair about Andy, but his 3-4 biggest nuthuggers on here that are obsessed with telling people "told you so" after just 6 weeks could be in for a rude awakening. But, it's not like any of them would actually come on here and admit being wrong, they'd just pass the blame to others anyway. Either way, they'll never be "wrong" with their bag of excuses.

Sort of like "the line doesn't open up any holes for him, only for Gio"??  :snark:

(10-21-2015, 09:57 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: First of all, there is no bandwagon when you're talking about a team that 1.) Has never won a Superbowl. 2.) Hasn't won a playoff game in 25 years and 3.) is almost the opposite of trendy, in terms of fashion and coverage.

How dare you denigrate the stripes, sir! It is an outrage!

(10-21-2015, 12:17 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I too did not think he was capable of this level of play.  Many times I said "I hope he proves me wrong".  The obvious question is, if he falters, which I absolutely hope he does not, how many "I was wrong" posts will we see from certain other people??

(10-21-2015, 12:17 PM)djs7685 Wrote: That's the issue though. A certain person or two will flip out that you mentioned "this version of Dalton", because they honestly believe he has always been this good but have just had excuses for the guy. It's sort of gross and sad.

WhoDeyWho claims he was "never wrong" and "didn't overrate Andy", yet everyone else is "wrong" for their past analysis. Suuuuuuure thing, it must be nice living in that fantasy world.

WhoDeyWho is the biggest Dalton homer on these forums. I remember in prior years Dalton would have games where he'd have ratings in the 60s and he'd come on these forums and consistently make excuses for him. It was sad.

(10-21-2015, 12:17 PM)djs7685 Wrote: That's the issue though. A certain person or two will flip out that you mentioned "this version of Dalton", because they honestly believe he has always been this good but have just had excuses for the guy. It's sort of gross and sad.

WhoDeyWho claims he was "never wrong" and "didn't overrate Andy", yet everyone else is "wrong" for their past analysis. Suuuuuuure thing, it must be nice living in that fantasy world.

"This version".  Lol.  It's the same damn QB!  It's called PROGRESSION gentlemen.   Some of us saw the potential given his first 4 years in the league.  Some of us didn't.  

Good post Wes/Toast. I always thought you provided a mostly reasonable, honest, and well thought out opinion and it seems that's still the case. Here's to hoping we all can continue to praise Andy and the team for their solid play. String a few years of this together and maybe we can even get Dalton into that vaunted elite category.

(10-21-2015, 12:25 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: WhoDeyWho is the biggest Dalton homer on these forums. I remember in prior years Dalton would have games where he'd have ratings in the 60s and he'd come on these forums and consistently make excuses for him. It was sad.

Whatever happened to OSUFan, there were times I wondered if he was Dalton's dad 

(10-21-2015, 12:25 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: "This version".  Lol.  It's the same damn QB!  It's called PROGRESSION gentlemen.   Some of us saw the potential given his first 4 years in the league.  Some of us didn't.  

It's actually called breakout season that nobody in their right mind predicted.  Almost every expert had Dalton ranked between 15-20th in terms of QBs. 

Last year was arguably his worst season to date so I'm not sure what you are referring to when you use the word progression. He's having a great season so far (6 games) let's just hope it continues.

(10-21-2015, 12:25 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: WhoDeyWho is the biggest Dalton homer on these forums. I remember in prior years Dalton would have games where he'd have ratings in the 60s and he'd come on these forums and consistently make excuses for him. It was sad.

Sorry for not getting too down on our QB for a bad game.  Bad games happen.  Especially to young QBs and even more so Bengals young QBs.   Sorry for defending our QB against the vultures who would circle around after any bad performance.

Given his play the defense seems justifiable.  

I'm proud to be a Dalton "homer/supporter" what have you.  It certainly beats the alternative.  

(10-21-2015, 12:25 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: "This version".  Lol.  It's the same damn QB!  It's called PROGRESSION gentlemen.   Some of us saw the potential given his first 4 years in the league.  Some of us didn't.  

You must not pay enough attention to the guy you obsess over if you don't see some huge changes from 2011 - 2014 and what Andy is doing in 2015.

Hue didn't magically fix his ball placement. Eifert didn't magically fix the pocket issues. MLJ didn't magically grant Andy the ability to throw a tighter spiral. Gio and Hill didn't go into his brain and alter some of the poor decision making.

He is playing like an entirely different QB, and I knew you'd cry about that quote from CB saying "this version", I just knew it. You can be read like a book. You're one of the very few people left on here that can't admit that we're seeing a MUCH different QB this year and that this is absolutely a bigger change than the slight natural progression that every QB goes through. Please show me where every other QB makes this large of a jump in their performance from their 4th year of starting into the 5th.

(10-21-2015, 12:31 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: It's actually called breakout season that nobody in their right mind predicted.  Almost every expert had Dalton ranked between 15-20th in terms of QBs. 

Last year was arguably his worst season to date so I'm not sure what you are referring to when you use the word progression. He's having a great season so far (6 games) let's just hope it continues.

20
27
33
19
?

Yeah, no one could have predicted Dalton becoming a top QB (not even saying elite, but certainly good enough to be the franchise QB for this team).  His TD numbers certainly don't point in that direction, save a miserable 2014 campaign where most of his offensive players were hurt and he got a new OC.  Nuance seems to be lost on some of you guys.  

(10-21-2015, 12:34 PM)djs7685 Wrote: You must not pay enough attention to the guy you obsess over if you don't see some huge changes from 2011 - 2014 and what Andy is doing in 2015.

Hue didn't magically fix his ball placement. Eifert didn't magically fix the pocket issues. MLJ didn't magically grant Andy the ability to throw a tighter spiral. Gio and Hill didn't go into his brain and alter some of the poor decision making.

He is playing like an entirely different QB, and I knew you'd cry about that quote from CB saying "this version", I just knew it. You can be read like a book. You're one of the very few people left on here that can't admit that we're seeing a MUCH different QB this year and that this is absolutely a bigger change than the slight natural progression that every QB goes through. Please show me where every other QB makes this large of a jump in their performance from their 4th year of starting into the 5th.

At the same time, though, having these weapons around him probably increases his confidence quite considerably.  Can you not see how that would lead to him making better decisions, having better pocket presence, and throwing better balls?  Obviously it isn't the only factor, but I can see it being a major one.

(10-21-2015, 12:36 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: 20
27
33
19
?

Yeah, no one could have predicted Dalton becoming a top QB (not even saying elite, but certainly good enough to be the franchise QB for this team).  His TD numbers certainly don't point in that direction, save a miserable 2014 campaign where most of his offensive players were hurt and he got a new OC.  Nuance seems to be lost on some of you guys.  

Man, how many boners do you get over Matthew Stafford? Probably a lot.

Just kidding, your criteria changes when we talk about different QBs. Silly me. Sorry!

Marvin (and the Browns) have brought this team a long ways from where it once was. It was the league laughing stock. So he deserves alot of credit. He may need to get better at clock management but to me once the Browns gave him his do over he has continually made good moves.  Like when you evaluate QBs in their early years are they improving. I think Marvin has continued to improve and evolve as a head coach. It took a while to get to this point but the organization was at rock bottom. I think the organization had a plan and they stucking to it. Just like they did with AD.

Just my 2 cents about ML.

(10-21-2015, 12:31 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: It's actually called breakout season that nobody in their right mind predicted.  Almost every expert had Dalton ranked between 15-20th in terms of QBs. 

Last year was arguably his worst season to date so I'm not sure what you are referring to when you use the word progression. He's having a great season so far (6 games) let's just hope it continues.

I have to agree with CB, this is a breakout season that i never predicted. Sure, i thought Dalton would have a
better season this year with his weapons back but i did not seeing improve this much. He looks like a different
QB out there. More of a transformation than progression.

Last season Dalton was pretty damn bad besides the Saints game.

(10-21-2015, 12:23 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote:   Fortunately he's been proven very wrong in terms of Dalton and management. 

I don't think I've been proven wrong on all that much actually. Much less "very" wrong on anything.

Just because Dalton is playing well now does not mean I was wrong when I deemed somwhere in the 18-22 range last year.  It doesn't mean I was wrong in any and all descriptions and evaluations I offered up in the past.  The only thing that I think I've been proven wrong on is his ceiling.  And even that remains to be seen, as far as sustainability.

As far as management, I can't think of much anything that I've been proven wrong on.  As I don't seem to recall every campaigning against the idea that they were incapable of starting a season 6-0.  What gripes do you hear often from me regarding management, let's make a checklist:

1.) Need to have a practice facility.  Perception is poor, players deserve comfort, it can only help.  Have I been proven wrong on that?  I don't think so.
2.) Marvin should have been fired long ago.  I'm pretty sure that simply a fact.  He should have been, and he would have been literally anywhere else.  Nothing done now changes the idea that this probably should have happened.  And last I checked, he still has a lot season left to prove me wrong.
3.) This team can't win in the postseason.  Um, yeah, still waiting.
4.) We need to spend more in FA.  Again, wake me up in January.  Until I see real results after the first of the year, in terms of us contending for a Superbowl, then I will not be convinced that we're at a disadvantage for not utilizing free agency better.
5.) Mike Brown is cheap.  Yup, he still cheap.  Maybe cheap can win, and I'm wrong on that.  But I aint wrong about him spending less than many of his peers.

So, please, you tell me all of what I've been proven wrong on.  I started this thread as mainly praise for the team, while also taking the time to admit that my mind has been changed on some things.  I thought I needed to own up to previous gripes and it would only be fair to in turn offer praise.  And I expect some ribbing here there, although I hoped it would be in fun.  But it doesn't seem at all fair to me to label me being proven wrong on everything I've said before.  And it seems some would rather pile on and continue to create a false division among the fanbase, which seems odd. And honestly, is the last thing I would expect from someone who is in charge of the forum.

Right now should be happy, happy fun time. The fact that I of all people are joining in is certainly evidence of that.  This thread was to serve as both a truthful and tongue-in-cheek reminder of that.  Things are so good that Toast is on board so to speak.  But rather than enjoy it and have some laughs some choose to as opportunity to continue this idea that they're somehow a better fan than others, because of the way they evaluate the team. 

And I'm the negative one?

(10-21-2015, 12:38 PM)InTheJungleNow9 Wrote: At the same time, though, having these weapons around him probably increases his confidence quite considerably.  Can you not see how that would lead to him making better decisions, having better pocket presence, and throwing better balls?  Obviously it isn't the only factor, but I can see it being a major one.

No. Having certain receivers or not shouldn't change whether a guy senses pressure that isn't there and gets happy feet or how accurate his intermediate and deep throws are.

His throws looked alright last year, but he was throwing to worse receivers. His receivers are better this year AND his passes look even tighter. It's not because of the receivers, I'm watching those two things separately, something that any observer should be able to do.

If Andy had high school kids as receivers, I'd still be able to judge aspects of his game dealing with the pocket and his placement on passes. Yes, having a guy like Eifert is great because it lets Andy have a reliable target to throw to and will allow him to put the ball places where only a great athlete can get it, but that's what I'm trying to say, Andy is able to put it there with accuracy that's never been seen from him before. Whether he's throwing slants to Sanu last year or throwing to Eifert up the seams, his placement has been much better this year, he isn't sailing many passes, and that's a VERY good thing.