(08-31-2020, 02:50 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Not particularly good?  With next to no other weapons around him, and questionable QB play, he put up 1152 yards rushing at a 4.3 YPC clip, AND had 76 receptions for 522 yards.  He was their only offensive weapon, and he still produced like that playing in a division with two playoff defenses.  

You might say he isn't a good person, or teammate, and I have no idea about those things, but I would hardly say he wasn't particularly good.  

Baby Jesus please don't let him end up in Pittsburgh

I sincerely doubt Fournette becomes a Bengal in any scenario. Far from the "culture" theme Zac has been thumping for so long, and it's not an urgent need.

(08-31-2020, 02:50 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Not particularly good?  With next to no other weapons around him, and questionable QB play, he put up 1152 yards rushing at a 4.3 YPC clip, AND had 76 receptions for 522 yards.  He was their only offensive weapon, and he still produced like that playing in a division with two playoff defenses.  

You might say he isn't a good person, or teammate, and I have no idea about those things, but I would hardly say he wasn't particularly good.  

(08-31-2020, 02:52 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Definitely agree with this, he is a good player for sure.

Fournette Career Numbers (After 3 years)
666 rushes, 2,631 yards (4.0 YPC)
134 catches, 1,009 yards (7.3 AVG)

That's from the 5th overall pick. Averaging under 900 rushing yards per year. You brought up his 4.3 YPC last year, but the year before that he had 3.3 YPC and the year before that 3.9 YPC. Also that 4.3 YPC is 2nd the lowest among all 16 1k rushers last year (only beats Joe Mixon).

He's ~7th best RB from his own draft.

I don't see what he brings to the table that journeymen like Carlos Hyde can't, and Hyde is on his 5th team in 4 years.

(08-31-2020, 05:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Fournette Career Numbers (After 3 years)
666 rushes, 2,631 yards (4.0 YPC)
134 catches, 1,009 yards (7.3 AVG)

That's from the 5th overall pick. Averaging under 900 rushing yards per year. You brought up his 4.3 YPC last year, but the year before that he had 3.3 YPC and the year before that 3.9 YPC. Also that 4.3 YPC is 2nd the lowest among all 16 1k rushers last year (only beats Joe Mixon).

He's ~7th best RB from his own draft.

I don't see what he brings to the table that journeymen like Carlos Hyde can't, and Hyde is on his 5th team in 4 years.

Fournette averages over 100 yards from scrimmage a game.  The only reason his yards/season is down is because he missed 8 games in '18. Both his rushing yards/game and scrimmage yards/game are actually better than Joe Mixon's and the Jags OL is also pretty crappy. Plus, we're talking about him as a timeshare/fallback option depending on Joe.  I can see the debate over his character and the salary, but he's a feature back, no question. 

(08-31-2020, 05:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Fournette Career Numbers (After 3 years)
666 rushes, 2,631 yards (4.0 YPC)
134 catches, 1,009 yards (7.3 AVG)

That's from the 5th overall pick. Averaging under 900 rushing yards per year. You brought up his 4.3 YPC last year, but the year before that he had 3.3 YPC and the year before that 3.9 YPC. Also that 4.3 YPC is 2nd the lowest among all 16 1k rushers last year (only beats Joe Mixon).

He's ~7th best RB from his own draft.

I don't see what he brings to the table that journeymen like Carlos Hyde can't, and Hyde is on his 5th team in 4 years.

This is my point.  Surrounding cast, even Mixon had better.  He had NOTHING around him.  Absolutely nothing.  He had injuries, too.  I wasn't justifying his draft position, I was countering someone that said he wasn't even "particularly good", which is a bunch of crap.  Put that guy on a team like pitt and watch out...which is a large part of why I drew attention to his release.  I don't want him going there.  

(08-31-2020, 03:36 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Great point

I d rather wait until a good rotational DT or starting caliber CB is available (Prince  Amukamara )was cut today and take my chances that Mixon is back and hope Patrick can handle the load if needed...+ hes the same size at Fournette

(08-31-2020, 05:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Fournette Career Numbers (After 3 years)
666 rushes, 2,631 yards (4.0 YPC)
134 catches, 1,009 yards (7.3 AVG)

That's from the 5th overall pick. Averaging under 900 rushing yards per year. You brought up his 4.3 YPC last year, but the year before that he had 3.3 YPC and the year before that 3.9 YPC. Also that 4.3 YPC is 2nd the lowest among all 16 1k rushers last year (only beats Joe Mixon).

He's ~7th best RB from his own draft.

I don't see what he brings to the table that journeymen like Carlos Hyde can't, and Hyde is on his 5th team in 4 years.

What relevance does draft position have for a team that did not draft a guy? 

The draft is a crap shoot, regardless of when any player is drafted. The odds are better 1st round picks are better, but not close to 100% success rate like some expect it to be because these guys get paid more than later picks,

(08-31-2020, 03:40 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The only way we claim him and pay him 4.6 million is to trade Gio and his salary or cut Gio

A combo of Mixon or Fournette on the goal line would add value, a rested back who is big and strong. But, if he has attitude issues, we should pass

This is a really, really interesting predicament.  We talk about wanting to win all the time.  Does anyone really believe the team is better with Gio and Mixon than with Fournette and Mixon?  And if dollars are similar?  Could Gio be the bell cow if Joe went down or didn't sign next year?  We already know that Fournette could, and has, from a team very devoid of talent.

I hate to say it, but it makes a lot of sense.  

Now, do I want to risk a hit to team chemistry by getting rid of a guy that everyone on the team loves for a potential character issue?  No, I don't.  I wouldn't do it.  But you couldn't say that it wouldn't likely make the team better.  Plus, how hard do you think Mixon would work with Fournette wanting carries?  Bit different with him behind you compared to Gio.  

(08-31-2020, 01:41 PM)BengalChris Wrote: He'll land somewhere and be productive, most likely. Bad attitude means it likely won't be with the Bengals though. If the Bengals do claim him, he'd come in knowing he wasn't numero uno.

Seems like it might be pretty easy to have a bad attitude on that team.  Just a few years ago, they were right on the verge of going to the SB with an absolute bum at QB and by the next year they were tearing it all down.  That could piss a guy off.

(08-31-2020, 05:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Fournette Career Numbers (After 3 years)
666 rushes, 2,631 yards (4.0 YPC)
134 catches, 1,009 yards (7.3 AVG)

That's from the 5th overall pick. Averaging under 900 rushing yards per year. You brought up his 4.3 YPC last year, but the year before that he had 3.3 YPC and the year before that 3.9 YPC. Also that 4.3 YPC is 2nd the lowest among all 16 1k rushers last year (only beats Joe Mixon).

He's ~7th best RB from his own draft.

I don't see what he brings to the table that journeymen like Carlos Hyde can't, and Hyde is on his 5th team in 4 years.

To be fair that was one of the most loaded RB Drafts in recent memory. Doesn't mean Fournette is not a good player.

(08-31-2020, 12:53 PM)Au165 Wrote: To me, a claim would potentially signal some issue with Mixon that may be greater than we know. 

To me, A.J. Green, Joe Mixon and John Ross all have issues, I truly believe Green will miss games this year as he simply cannot stay healthy enough to play,I do believe Mixon is holding out because of money which I blame the front office for not getting the guy his money,he has earned it and now he is going to be sour on this front office which I do not blame him,he has EARNED his money,pay the guy.John Ross is a bust,the guy gets hurt running on the field.. I believe aj will be gone after this season and I think his hamstring is worse than we know.
 
I believe the first couple games are going to sloppy,ugly and not NFL ready football.Now our gov will not allow fans in the stands,but the Dolphins are allowing 25 thousand the first game,Go think about that.

(08-31-2020, 05:26 PM)Whatever Wrote: Fournette averages over 100 yards from scrimmage a game.  The only reason his yards/season is down is because he missed 8 games in '18. Both his rushing yards/game and scrimmage yards/game are actually better than Joe Mixon's and the Jags OL is also pretty crappy. Plus, we're talking about him as a timeshare/fallback option depending on Joe.  I can see the debate over his character and the salary, but he's a feature back, no question. 

On 22.2 touches per game, which is a pretty healthy amount. Missing games isn't an excuse though, because you're not good if you're not healthy. Even when healthy though, he doesn't do himself a ton of favors...

The guy only had 19 broken tackles in 398 rushes over the last two years... as a 230lb RB. That's 20.9 carries per broken tackle which is pretty pathetic.

For comparison, some other RBs carries per broken tackle over the last two years...
Joe Mixon: 17.2
Derrick Henry: 8.2
Saquon Barkley: 10.4
Nick Chubb: 9.1
Christian McCaffrey: 16.3
Ezekiel Elliott: 14.1
Chris Carson: 10.3
Phillip Lindsay: 10.7

As you can see, 20.9 is a huge number in comparison. 

(08-31-2020, 05:45 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: This is my point.  Surrounding cast, even Mixon had better.  He had NOTHING around him.  Absolutely nothing.  He had injuries, too.  I wasn't justifying his draft position, I was countering someone that said he wasn't even "particularly good", which is a bunch of crap.  Put that guy on a team like pitt and watch out...which is a large part of why I drew attention to his release.  I don't want him going there.  

Maybe. I just see a guy who can't stay healthy, and has only had 1 good year out of 3.

Pittsburgh can't be your example of where he'll thrive because they are allowed to hold all game long. Any RB will do well with an OL that is allowed to hold. They made Bell look like a HoF back and even made Connor a Pro Bowler. Heck, that OL held enough that even the washed up corpse of 32-year-old DeAngelo Williams put together a good season.

If you look at my top reply of my double-reply, you'll see that surrounding talent aside, Fournette hasn't done himself a ton of favors in getting extra yardage. He simply either doesn't run powerful or elusive enough to help himself as good RBs do.

(08-31-2020, 06:14 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: On 22.2 touches per game, which is a pretty healthy amount. Missing games isn't an excuse though, because you're not good if you're not healthy. Even when healthy though, he doesn't do himself a ton of favors...

The guy only had 19 broken tackles in 398 rushes over the last two years... as a 230lb RB. That's 20.9 carries per broken tackle which is pretty pathetic.

For comparison, some other RBs carries per broken tackle over the last two years...
Joe Mixon: 17.2
Derrick Henry: 8.2
Saquon Barkley: 10.4
Nick Chubb: 9.1
Christian McCaffrey: 16.3
Ezekiel Elliott: 14.1
Chris Carson: 10.3
Phillip Lindsay: 10.7

As you can see, 20.9 is a huge number in comparison. 



Maybe. I just see a guy who can't stay healthy, and has only had 1 good year out of 3.

Pittsburgh can't be your example of where he'll thrive because they are allowed to hold all game long. Any RB will do well with an OL that is allowed to hold. They made Bell look like a HoF back and even made Connor a Pro Bowler. Heck, that OL held enough that even the washed up corpse of 32-year-old DeAngelo Williams put together a good season.

If you look at my top reply of my double-reply, you'll see that surrounding talent aside, Fournette hasn't done himself a ton of favors in getting extra yardage. He simply either doesn't run powerful or elusive enough to help himself as good RBs do.

What are they considering a "broken tackle?"  Last year, Fournette was third in the league per Pro Football Reference in Yards After Contact with 792.  Mixon had 645 by comparison.  Fournette was also tied for 3rd best YAC/Carry at 3.0. Joe had 2.3 by comparison. Plus, he was still tied for 17th in Broken Tackles, so not bad, just not excellent.

I don't think the guy is Christian McCafferty or anything, but he's been a 1000 yard back behind an OL worse than ours 2 out of the last 3 years and he missed half a year.  That's way better than journeymen like Carlos Hyde who has 1 1,000 yard season in 6 years.  He's definitely a cut above the guys who are currently available.

Eh I can't say I wouldn't take a chance on him. I really want the Bengals to move on from Gio since they do not know how to use him.

My only concern is yes the character issues but really Fournette is a player you sign if you are contending for a SB. We aren't close yet. So I rather not piss off Mixon :)

(08-31-2020, 07:13 PM)Whatever Wrote: What are they considering a "broken tackle?"  Last year, Fournette was third in the league per Pro Football Reference in Yards After Contact with 792.  Mixon had 645 by comparison.  Fournette was also tied for 3rd best YAC/Carry at 3.0. Joe had 2.3 by comparison. Plus, he was still tied for 17th in Broken Tackles, so not bad, just not excellent.

I don't think the guy is Christian McCafferty or anything, but he's been a 1000 yard back behind an OL worse than ours 2 out of the last 3 years and he missed half a year.  That's way better than journeymen like Carlos Hyde who has 1 1,000 yard season in 6 years.  He's definitely a cut above the guys who are currently available.

I am just using Pro Football Reference's advanced stats to determine broken tackles. Hence why the numbers are only for the last two years (when they started tracking it).

Counting straight broken tackles and saying he's 17th is pointless. Same reason why straight YAC isn't great either. Getting a ton of opportunities doesn't mean you're doing a good job with those opportunities. It's the same reason why as long as they both have a decent amount of carries, YPC is a far better indicator of quality than total rushing yards.

Jerome Bettis 1999: 299 rushes/1,091 yards (3.6 YPC)
Nick Chubb 2018: 192 rushes/996 yards (5.2 YPC)

The rates almost always give a better picture than the total counting stats (so long as you're keeping to a minimum to filter out the real small sample sizes).

- - - -

The YAC/Carry is a good stat, though. It does means while he doesn't break many tackles, at least he makes it hurt when he does.

I firmly disagree that his OL has been worse than the Bengals over the last 3 years. I refuse to believe that anyone's OL has been worse than the Bengals over the last 3 years.

If you put any stock in PFF grades, this is from 2019....

Bengals OL, min 33% offensive snaps:
Hopkins (62.4)
Hart (57.6)
Miller (58.6)
Jordan (43.7)
Jerry (55.6)
Price (41.9)

Jaguars OL, min 33% offensive snaps:
J Taylor (63.7)
Norwell (65.5)
Linder (75.3)
Robinson (54.8)
Cann (55.3)
Richardson (43.0)

Neither are particularly good, but the Jags are still much better. At least they had 3 starting quality OL including one good one. The Bengals had 1. The Bengals best OL last year was still worse than three of the Jag's OL. That's pretty bad.

I'm all on board that Fournette didn't have a ton of surrounding talent in the skill department. Never disputed that, but to say he's had a worse OL than the Bengals for the last 3 years is something that simply can't be said.

(08-31-2020, 07:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I am just using Pro Football Reference's advanced stats to determine broken tackles. Hence why the numbers are only for the last two years (when they started tracking it).

Counting straight broken tackles and saying he's 17th is pointless. Same reason why straight YAC isn't great either. Getting a ton of opportunities doesn't mean you're doing a good job with those opportunities. It's the same reason why as long as they both have a decent amount of carries, YPC is a far better indicator of quality than total rushing yards.

Jerome Bettis 1999: 299 rushes/1,091 yards (3.6 YPC)
Nick Chubb 2018: 192 rushes/996 yards (5.2 YPC)

The rates almost always give a better picture than the total counting stats (so long as you're keeping to a minimum to filter out the real small sample sizes).

- - - -

The YAC/Carry is a good stat, though. It does means while he doesn't break many tackles, at least he makes it hurt when he does.

I firmly disagree that his OL has been worse than the Bengals over the last 3 years. I refuse to believe that anyone's OL has been worse than the Bengals over the last 3 years.

If you put any stock in PFF grades, this is from 2019....

Bengals OL, min 33% offensive snaps:
Hopkins (62.4)
Hart (57.6)
Miller (58.6)
Jordan (43.7)
Jerry (55.6)
Price (41.9)

Jaguars OL, min 33% offensive snaps:
J Taylor (63.7)
Norwell (65.5)
Linder (75.3)
Robinson (54.8)
Cann (55.3)
Richardson (43.0)

Neither are particularly good, but the Jags are still much better. At least they had 3 starting quality OL including one good one. The Bengals had 1. The Bengals best OL last year was still worse than three of the Jag's OL. That's pretty bad.

I'm all on board that Fournette didn't have a ton of surrounding talent in the skill department. Never disputed that, but to say he's had a worse OL than the Bengals for the last 3 years is something that simply can't be said.

Thanks for all the work man, you have been working your ass off getting all this stuff lol

I agree, we have had a worse OL than the Jags the last few years no question. Hope that changes this season.

(08-31-2020, 08:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Thanks for all the work man, you have been working your ass off getting all this stuff lol

I agree, we have had a worse OL than the Jags the last few years no question. Hope that changes this season.

Getting back in posting shape for the season. I follow the Eddie Lacy offseason workout routine for my offseason posting. So I get real lazy in the "Armon Binns is Calvin Johnson/Margus Hunt did MMA so he's going to get double digit sacks" parts of the year. Lol



Yeah, I don't think they'll be a good unit, but I do hope they'll at least be a mediocre OL. That'd be a nice upgrade and it might give Burrow a chance to survive the season. Can't let Burrow get sacked 48 times like Bengals QBs did last year. Hopefully the offense is built ready for some quick throws if things don't look great. If Burrow survives and his development isn't set back by shellshock or Taylor's bad offense then I will consider it a win.

(08-31-2020, 09:13 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Getting back in posting shape for the season. I follow the Eddie Lacy offseason workout routine for my offseason posting. So I get real lazy in the "Armon Binns is Calvin Johnson/Margus Hunt did MMA so he's going to get double digit sacks" parts of the year. Lol



Yeah, I don't think they'll be a good unit, but I do hope they'll at least be a mediocre OL. That'd be a nice upgrade and it might give Burrow a chance to survive the season. Can't let Burrow get sacked 48 times like Bengals QBs did last year. Hopefully the offense is built ready for some quick throws if things don't look great. If Burrow survives and his development isn't set back by shellshock or Taylor's bad offense then I will consider it a win.

Just heard the Vikes might cut Riley Reiff, would be all for bringing him in....

(08-31-2020, 07:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I am just using Pro Football Reference's advanced stats to determine broken tackles. Hence why the numbers are only for the last two years (when they started tracking it).

Counting straight broken tackles and saying he's 17th is pointless. Same reason why straight YAC isn't great either. Getting a ton of opportunities doesn't mean you're doing a good job with those opportunities. It's the same reason why as long as they both have a decent amount of carries, YPC is a far better indicator of quality than total rushing yards.

Jerome Bettis 1999: 299 rushes/1,091 yards (3.6 YPC)
Nick Chubb 2018: 192 rushes/996 yards (5.2 YPC)

The rates almost always give a better picture than the total counting stats (so long as you're keeping to a minimum to filter out the real small sample sizes).

- - - -

The YAC/Carry is a good stat, though. It does means while he doesn't break many tackles, at least he makes it hurt when he does.

I firmly disagree that his OL has been worse than the Bengals over the last 3 years. I refuse to believe that anyone's OL has been worse than the Bengals over the last 3 years.

If you put any stock in PFF grades, this is from 2019....

Bengals OL, min 33% offensive snaps:
Hopkins (62.4)
Hart (57.6)
Miller (58.6)
Jordan (43.7)
Jerry (55.6)
Price (41.9)

Jaguars OL, min 33% offensive snaps:
J Taylor (63.7)
Norwell (65.5)
Linder (75.3)
Robinson (54.8)
Cann (55.3)
Richardson (43.0)

Neither are particularly good, but the Jags are still much better. At least they had 3 starting quality OL including one good one. The Bengals had 1. The Bengals best OL last year was still worse than three of the Jag's OL. That's pretty bad.

I'm all on board that Fournette didn't have a ton of surrounding talent in the skill department. Never disputed that, but to say he's had a worse OL than the Bengals for the last 3 years is something that simply can't be said.

Fournette only had 1.4 Yards Before Contact per Carry last year, 5th worst in the league.  That indicates defenders are on top of him quick.  By comparison, Mixon had 1.8 YBC/C last year.  I use Joe as a comparison because he's someone we've all watched play a lot and fans routinely complain about him getting hit in the backfield all the time and making something out of nothing.  

PFF is a decent tool.  The problem is, overall player ratings is not the same as their run blocking grades, which is what is pertinent to this discussion.  In Profootballoutsiders OL ranks, the Bengals OL ranks higher in run blocking, but the Jags are rated higher in pass blocking.  PFF grades on OL are weighted more towards pass blocking because you basically have to pancake a guy to get a positive grade on a run play in their system.  Most times, players just get a neutral 0 grade unless they were exceptionally bad or good.

I'm not saying Fournette is an elite RB by any stretch.  However, he could be very effective in a timeshare and could be a season saver if Joe can't go.

I could see the team claiming Fournette if Marvin and Co. were still here. The team had him as the #1 RB in 2017 and Hobson has written before that the team would've seriously considered him at #9.