(09-08-2020, 02:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am agreeing with you. If speed does not matter, separation does not matter, an Tate makes all the contested catches then there is no reason he can't be Jerry Rice, right?

He should easily be twice as good, since Joe (Montana) Burrow will likely never throw an incompletion. 

(09-08-2020, 02:33 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'll say it for the millionth time...
"Separation" is the biggest, overused, bullshit, useless term/variable used for a reciever. If a guy is productive in his skill set, all that other stuff is bunk. 

Right, I spent a whole thread arguing that a while back and it made my head hurt. He somehow can't be Mike Williams because he isn't as fast. Being fast apparently creates separation in people's minds. Auden Tate gets better separation than Mike Williams, but that can't be true because he isn't as fast.

It's a really weird circular discussion.

(09-08-2020, 02:33 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'll say it for the millionth time...
"Separation" is the biggest, overused, bullshit, useless term/variable used for a reciever. If a guy is productive in his skill set, all that other stuff is bunk. 

This is true, but to a point, being fast DOES help.

But players like Boldin and Housh can do it cause of their great route running and hands.

So could Auden. We will see. He has much better size as we all know which also helps.

Auden Tate is the greatest thing since sliced cheese.

(09-08-2020, 07:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Auden Tate is the greatest thing since sliced cheese.

I love sliced cheese.

(09-08-2020, 01:56 PM)Au165 Wrote: Actually, I didn't use TD's because you were strictly going off yards in your initial post. 

"Speed" to stretch the field is such a cliche that sounds good but really isn't what people think it is, especially when you think about the fact a 2 high shell negates the idea of guys just running straight by. Rarely in the NFL does a receiver line up and just run by a DB. A couple of reasons for that, one being that a .2 second difference in a 40 time doesn't make up for a 6-8 yard cushion. That is why even on a 9 route there is a skill to running the route. You can win the release giving you leverage at the start, thus allowing you to stack them, or you can stem them attacking leverage at the top of the route which then allows you to stack. 

Speed can make these things easier because there is more room for error, but I can show you highlight after highlight of "slow" guys beating much faster corners via proper stemming and stacking. If it was as simple as being fast Al Davis would have had the greatest air raid offense on earth, but he didn't because he didn't actually understand there was more to getting vertical than just speed.

I didn't use yards in my initial post.  I used 20+ and 40+ yard receptions to illustrate that Williams is a downfield threat while Tate is not.  You tried to shift the discussion to yards because Tate doesn't stack up in the original comparison.

You can use technique and good route running ability to gain separation on a deep fly.  Problem with that or any route that takes a good deal of time to develop is that you have to be fast enough to maintain that separation.  That's why mid 4.5 guys can still be effective deep if they are good route runners. They aren't burners, but they're fast enough to maintain the separation they create. When you're .2 slower than the CB, though, it's too easy for him to recover.  Conversely, if you're a 4.3-4.4 guy, if you win at the top of your route it's nearly impossible for the CB to recover quickly enough.  The other issue is that when you're that slow, there's less ground for the S to cover. They can be slow to react and still get there in time to make a play.  Seriously, there's a reason why teams don't just line up with 4 6'5"+ TE's on offense and play jump ball.  No matter how good you are with 50/50 balls, you aren't coming down with many when you're sandwiched between two defenders.

Besides which, you have defended Tate's route running ability on numerous occasions.  He's proven over two years that he's not a deep threat.  Either he's too slow, he's not a good route runner, or both.  

I'm sure you can drag up some highlights of a guy who's played 15 years in the league like Anquan Boldin winning deep.  I can drag up film of good pass pro reps from Cedric Ogbuehi, too.  Highlights are a poor indication of what a player's typical play level is like. Coverages get blown, defenders slip, jump balls go the receiver's way, OC makes the perfect play call, etc., etc.

(09-08-2020, 04:33 PM)Au165 Wrote: Right, I spent a whole thread arguing that a while back and it made my head hurt. He somehow can't be Mike Williams because he isn't as fast. Being fast apparently creates separation in people's minds. Auden Tate gets better separation than Mike Williams, but that can't be true because he isn't as fast.

It's a really weird circular discussion.

Auden Tate can't be Mike Williams because Williams is a deep threat and Tate is not.  Williams tied for the league lead with 8 40+ yard receptions last year.  Tate has never had a 40+ yard reception.  That's why it's a terrible comparison.  It's like saying a heavyweight boxer who has never knocked anyone out is like Mike Tyson.  If a boxer isn't knocking out opponents, they aren't like Tyson.  If a WR isn't generating 40+ yard chunk plays, they aren't like Williams, unless you're saying he's a poor man's version.

Honestly,  they nailed this one. Tate is built like megatron and if he can put it together the Bengals have a Redzone hands guy in Tate.  #1 in Aj. Speedy fastest guy in the NFL in Ross.. Posession guy get you the 1st down in T. BOYD, AND The Rookie that has all the potential in the world in Higgins. Throw in a little Mixon and This could be lethal...

(09-08-2020, 04:33 PM)Au165 Wrote: Right, I spent a whole thread arguing that a while back and it made my head hurt. He somehow can't be Mike Williams because he isn't as fast. Being fast apparently creates separation in people's minds. Auden Tate gets better separation than Mike Williams, but that can't be true because he isn't as fast.

It's a really weird circular discussion.

You might as well be talking to that tree out in your yard. They're so entrenched in the "WR has to be a speed demon or he's useless narrative" they can't let it go.

(09-08-2020, 02:33 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'll say it for the millionth time...
"Separation" is the biggest, overused, bullshit, useless term/variable used for a reciever. If a guy is productive in his skill set, all that other stuff is bunk. 

Yep, but they just don't get it.

(09-09-2020, 09:14 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep, but they just don't get it.

Right.  Every college and NFL team in the country is just stupid to look for WRs who are fast or run routes well enought to get seperation.

All they need to do is line up a bunch of slow 6'6" guys and their passing game would be unstoppable.

(09-09-2020, 10:09 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Right.  Every college and NFL team in the country is just stupid to look for WRs who are fast or run routes well enought to get seperation.

All they need to do is line up a bunch of slow 6'6" guys and their passing game would be unstoppable.

People act like Tate is Andre Smith or something...

He’s not that slow.

(09-09-2020, 10:46 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: People act like Tate is Andre Smith or something...

He’s not that slow.

Haven't you heard?  Speed does not matter.  Getting seperation does not matter.  A WR does not have to get open if he can make contested catches.  Tate can get 1000 yards and lead the league with a 20 yard averaga  if he just has a good QB.

(09-08-2020, 07:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Auden Tate is the greatest thing since sliced cheese.

I’m now gonna call him Pepper Jack

(09-09-2020, 10:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Haven't you heard?  Speed does not matter.  Getting seperation does not matter.  A WR does not have to get open if he can make contested catches.  Tate can get 1000 yards and lead the league with a 20 yard averaga  if he just has a good QB.

I challenge you to go back to the season projections thread and find a single poster that predicted 1k yds for Tate.

(09-09-2020, 10:46 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: People act like Tate is Andre Smith or something...

He’s not that slow.

27 LB's ran the 40 at the combine this year.  17 of them ran as fast or faster than Tate.  How are people arriving at the conclusion that he isn't that slow?  He's below average for a LB by today's standards.

(09-09-2020, 09:12 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: You might as well be talking to that tree out in your yard. They're so entrenched in the "WR has to be a speed demon or he's useless narrative" they can't let it go.

And people are complaining about Fred strawmanning on this topic.

(09-09-2020, 12:31 PM)Whatever Wrote: 27 LB's ran the 40 at the combine this year.  17 of them ran as fast or faster than Tate.  How are people arriving at the conclusion that he isn't that slow?  He's below average for a LB by today's standards.

So LBers being faster than ever equals Tate being the slowest WR ever? How many WR’s in the last few years have had slower times?

(09-09-2020, 12:30 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I challenge you to go back to the season projections thread and find a single poster that predicted 1k yds for Tate.

He's just being stupid again. It's about how productive Tate can/is/could be, within his skillset. On his talents. But he has to constantly change things and make arguments that aren't already there. After a while you just go "**** it" and do something like this...



Tate isn't the best thing since sliced bread or sliced cheese. Tate IS what slices. WW

(09-08-2020, 02:33 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I'll say it for the millionth time...
"Separation" is the biggest, overused, bullshit, useless term/variable used for a reciever. If a guy is productive in his skill set, all that other stuff is bunk. 

Problem is, Tate was one of the least productive WR's in the league with his number of Targets.  When that is pointed out, his supporters bring up target quality.  Even disregarding the fact that when you adjusr Tate's stats based on target quality it equates to 35 yards over the course of the season, when you don't get separation it makes tougher throws for the QB and consequentially a lower target quality.